Er was eens een straatveger in Amsterdam, die na 20 jaar trouwe dienst ontslagen werd. Hij werd werkloos, en na verloop van tijd werd hij verplicht gemeenschapsdienst te verrichten. Hij moest de straat gaan vegen. Voor een fractie van zijn vorige loon.
We about to have the cleanest cities you can imagine
If you’ve got work for people, call it a job and employ those people. Don’t undercut people that are now already doing those jobs.
Als die “verplichte gemeenschapsdienst” vroegere jobs vervangt, nijgt dat eerder naar slavernij, zeker als je niet mag kiezen wat die “verplichte gemeenschapsdiesnt” inhoud.
Als ze zeggen: “hier is een lijst met organisaties, zoals dierenasielen, milieuorganisties, eenzaamheidsbestrijding, zoiets, kies er een en ga elke week 2 uur helpen” dan is dit zo slecht nog nie. Als ze zeggen “jij, straten poetsen en we ontslaan onze vroegere kuisploeg”, dan heb ik weinig positiefs te zeggen.
i have my doubts about this tbh…
IMHO, this is deeply disturbing. Mandatory service exists in our system as a punishment for petty crimes. The idea to impose that to unemployed persons implies two things: firstly, this person is unemployed by his own choice (which is highly debatable, considering the high rate of structural unemployment in our country); secondly, this person should be punished for this aforementioned choice by being forced to execute mandatory service.
I think this is a very dangerous thought process, but on the other hand I am quite confident this policy will be broken down by the european courts.
People being forced into this kind of shit will at best do a poor job, and they would be right to do so.
I wonder if this will apply to those not claiming benefits as well (either because ineligble or other reasons).
Regardless though, I fail to see any tangible benefit of this, other than the classic neoliberal attitude of fucking over the poor/vulnerable to get richer themselves (see also: DWP in the UK).
en mindervaliden?
Meanwhile, I, fully employed, sitting behind my computer all alone 8h/day.
As someone who works for a company that works for VDAB. I couldn’t possibly see this going wrong.
#***/S***
Legit alles wat NVA aanraakt verandert in stront
Modern slavery, quite simple.
If a person doesn’t want to work, forcing them is authoritarian, plain and simple.
The given reason is an excuse, the actual reason is oppressors reminding you they want to oppress you and you should expect this oppression and be normalized to it.
Of gewoon langdurige werklozen een contract van zes maanden geven bij de lokale overheid zoals vroeger werd gedaan.. .
Het klinkt eerder als een ~~pest~~ strafmaatregel. Met dat zinnetje erbij: “voor je sociale vaardigheden”, wat ik betwijfel.
Misschien ook een zweep gebruiken. “Zo behouden ze motivatie.”
Because there will be follow up and sanctions for companies that abuse this. /s
Lots of abuse with IBO contracts, VOP premies,… shows us that it’s s the individual who experiences the negative effects and the employer just carries on.
Imagen al those people on prépension throwing into this.
I can’t even begin to express how insulting it is to say that about people who have a problem. That’s just peak victim blaming. Most people unemployed that long need specialised help. You can’t just equate a whole group to the perception that people don’t want to work. If people really don’t want to work, it’s your jobs that suck. We’re all entitled to our basic needs. That’s how we’ve agreed to run our society. So if you want people to work, make it interesting to them. And give them a proper chance. Don’t churn them through temp contract bullshit constructions. And stop excluding people who need a little adjustment.
De kloof tussen controle over de burgers en gebrek aan controle voor politici is weer een beetje groter. De adel van de Wetstraat vond het blijkbaar tijd om slavernij terug in te voeren.
Bedenk eens hoe het voelt als je na een lange carrière door omstandigheden op je 55ste zonder werk valt. Iemand van 55 moet nog jaren gaan werken, maar zal door zijn leeftijd moeilijk een baan vinden. Heb je heel je leven hard gewerkt, misschien universitair geschoold en omdat iedereen je te oud vind, kan vader staat je nu een borstel in de hand duwen en je wat straatstenen toewijzen. Voor €1,3 per uur!
I’m surprised at the pushback on this.
I feel for people who lose their jobs and I understand it can be difficult to find a new job in the same field or reorient themselves.
But is it so unreasonable that after two whole years of being unemployed whilst you are not ill or disabled or studying or otherwise unfit, the society asks you to undertake some extra tasks for a max of 64 hours per month?
Those people can get some extra drive to search for work if they don’t like the community service or they might actually relearn some basic skills on community service and they even get something in return for that too.
Its ludicrous people are yelling slavery or economic bandage over this. Society implies a both way exchange, not a system where endless profiteering from other people’s social contributions is allowed. This system satisfies both ends.
Such a system has no demonstrable practical benefits and only serves as a symbolic measure, ranging from “look, we’re doing something about the problem” at best and “let’s punish those freeloaders” at worst.
Mijn vermoeden is dat deze mensen onderandere ingezet zullen worden om de zorgsector te ‘redden’. Kwaliteit van zorg bestaat toch al niet meer, en het kan niet goedkoop genoeg zijn tegenwoordig. Ik vind ook dat mensen betaald mogen worden voor hun werk.
Noem het dan gewoon dat ze die mensen goedkoop in dienst willen hebben voor klussen waarvoor niemand anders wilt betalen. Dat belerende arrogante toontje van “het is voor je eigen sociale vaardigheden”…
Why is it that every single time some dumbass idea comes up, it’s always the same few politicians?
Every single time I think wtf is that idea, it comes from Crevits, Wyts or Van Quickenborne. I might forget a few, but mostly those 3.
If you’re unemployed for two years straight, you either don’t want to work and are content with getting €800/month (quite unlikely), or you’re a disabled person trying to fight against all odds through discrimination and lack of support to achieve employment and independence.
You won’t get much out of the tiny first group anyways, and you punish the latter group which is already struggling far more than anyone else when they could just go on disability and be free to do what they want 24/7.
There are already few good volunteering jobs. The good ones get taken instantly. What’s left is mostly positions that make me think “you’re not getting anyone to do all of this unless you pay them fulltime”. There’s no way the government can just create more meaningful productive jobs. Sheltered workshops are close to slavery already and only exist because of subsidies, which end in the pockets of the non-disabled people that run the place instead of the (usually intellectually) disabled workers. There’s a reason for the last part by the way. They’re easier to exploit than other disabled people who can speak up for themselves and understand when they’re being exploited.
The main reason they want to do this is to create more competition on the job market which will force wages down, fatten CEO wallets, and create more demand for cheap labor.
The only thing it will do is further alienate the unemployed from the community. Not only do they barely get paid anything, it also makes them even more of an outsider.
I’m so sick of this neo-liberal propaganda. The unemployed are not a drain on the economy who need to be squeezed out of existence. They are human beings who need to be treated with dignity. They are not the enemy of the people.
Also, the argument that “community service” will help them “retain social skills” is complete bullshit.
En wat is hier anders aan dan taakstraffen die criminelen soms moeten doen?
I imagine the tasks will be things like street cleaning, collecting leaves and other gardening activities.
What will happen to the people currently doing that kind of thing?
This creates a risk of people losing their jobs to be replaced by unemployed people for a lower cost. So there need to be decent safeguards to make sure that does not happen.
If those are provided, there are good parts to a system like this. Someone who’s been unemployed long term, gets into a rut that makes it even harder to find a new job. There’s no reason to get up in the morning anymore. Getting a bit of routine in their life, helps with this. They will indeed also (re)learn social skills. If you’ve been unemployed for two years but you are willing to work, you’re probably pretty keen on actually feeling useful.
It’s anecdotal, but I recently heard from someone whose job is finding ‘useful activities’ for people that can’t function in the regular workforce (lack of language skills, psychological problems, extreme marginalization,….). They often don’t even get regular unemployment and have to live on a minimum income. It takes individual care and effort, but once they find an activity (which is unpaid), their situation can improve dramatically. Those people also like what they’re doing to such an extent, that when the government said they were free from their obligation during Corona, they often still continued to go to “work”. If we apply this to people that are involuntary unemployed, there is no reason we can’t help those in the same way.
But again, this can only work if we make sure there won’t be any actual jobs that get replaced by community service.
Speaking from experience, sometimes you just need a push out the door. I got fired from my first job and was unemployed for 4 months. My day/night cycle basically got inverted, I went to sleep at 5 am and slept till the afternoon, and pretty much didn’t even know what day it was by the end. I can imagine that after 24 months the simple things like getting up at 6:30 and being there on time seem like insurmountable obstacles.
I do hope they find some useful jobs though, like going shopping for the elderly or managing traffic at pedestrian crossings near schools or something. They should walk away from with a feeling of having accomplished something.
Forced labour and modern slavery is back. SMH.
> Vereniging van Vlaamse steden en gemeenten (VVSG)
Wait, so CD&V runs a union for cities against the government? Isn’t this completely useless?
I constantly see people on this sub complaining about: their wages not increasing enough, social security being underfunded, schools being underfunded, high work pressure, high taxes,… Well guess what? **This is the core issue**. There’s only around 5 million Belgians providing for the other 6 million and that will further decrease in the coming years. That’s simply not sustainable. Of course those working aren’t going to feel like working anymore because in order for social security to be paid, those working need to get squeezed hard. Labour experts have been saying it for years: there aren’t enough shoulders to bear the burden. Two options: reduce welfare or get more people contributing to the system.
Heel goed iniatief. Ik werk elke dag met mensen die alles hebben opgegeven en van smorgens tot s’avonds in bed blijven liggen, volledig lam-gesubsidieerd.
38 comments
Er was eens een straatveger in Amsterdam, die na 20 jaar trouwe dienst ontslagen werd. Hij werd werkloos, en na verloop van tijd werd hij verplicht gemeenschapsdienst te verrichten. Hij moest de straat gaan vegen. Voor een fractie van zijn vorige loon.
We about to have the cleanest cities you can imagine
If you’ve got work for people, call it a job and employ those people. Don’t undercut people that are now already doing those jobs.
Als die “verplichte gemeenschapsdienst” vroegere jobs vervangt, nijgt dat eerder naar slavernij, zeker als je niet mag kiezen wat die “verplichte gemeenschapsdiesnt” inhoud.
Als ze zeggen: “hier is een lijst met organisaties, zoals dierenasielen, milieuorganisties, eenzaamheidsbestrijding, zoiets, kies er een en ga elke week 2 uur helpen” dan is dit zo slecht nog nie. Als ze zeggen “jij, straten poetsen en we ontslaan onze vroegere kuisploeg”, dan heb ik weinig positiefs te zeggen.
i have my doubts about this tbh…
IMHO, this is deeply disturbing. Mandatory service exists in our system as a punishment for petty crimes. The idea to impose that to unemployed persons implies two things: firstly, this person is unemployed by his own choice (which is highly debatable, considering the high rate of structural unemployment in our country); secondly, this person should be punished for this aforementioned choice by being forced to execute mandatory service.
I think this is a very dangerous thought process, but on the other hand I am quite confident this policy will be broken down by the european courts.
People being forced into this kind of shit will at best do a poor job, and they would be right to do so.
I wonder if this will apply to those not claiming benefits as well (either because ineligble or other reasons).
Regardless though, I fail to see any tangible benefit of this, other than the classic neoliberal attitude of fucking over the poor/vulnerable to get richer themselves (see also: DWP in the UK).
en mindervaliden?
Meanwhile, I, fully employed, sitting behind my computer all alone 8h/day.
As someone who works for a company that works for VDAB. I couldn’t possibly see this going wrong.
#***/S***
Legit alles wat NVA aanraakt verandert in stront
Modern slavery, quite simple.
If a person doesn’t want to work, forcing them is authoritarian, plain and simple.
The given reason is an excuse, the actual reason is oppressors reminding you they want to oppress you and you should expect this oppression and be normalized to it.
Of gewoon langdurige werklozen een contract van zes maanden geven bij de lokale overheid zoals vroeger werd gedaan.. .
Het klinkt eerder als een ~~pest~~ strafmaatregel. Met dat zinnetje erbij: “voor je sociale vaardigheden”, wat ik betwijfel.
Misschien ook een zweep gebruiken. “Zo behouden ze motivatie.”
Because there will be follow up and sanctions for companies that abuse this. /s
Lots of abuse with IBO contracts, VOP premies,… shows us that it’s s the individual who experiences the negative effects and the employer just carries on.
Imagen al those people on prépension throwing into this.
I can’t even begin to express how insulting it is to say that about people who have a problem. That’s just peak victim blaming. Most people unemployed that long need specialised help. You can’t just equate a whole group to the perception that people don’t want to work. If people really don’t want to work, it’s your jobs that suck. We’re all entitled to our basic needs. That’s how we’ve agreed to run our society. So if you want people to work, make it interesting to them. And give them a proper chance. Don’t churn them through temp contract bullshit constructions. And stop excluding people who need a little adjustment.
De kloof tussen controle over de burgers en gebrek aan controle voor politici is weer een beetje groter. De adel van de Wetstraat vond het blijkbaar tijd om slavernij terug in te voeren.
Bedenk eens hoe het voelt als je na een lange carrière door omstandigheden op je 55ste zonder werk valt. Iemand van 55 moet nog jaren gaan werken, maar zal door zijn leeftijd moeilijk een baan vinden. Heb je heel je leven hard gewerkt, misschien universitair geschoold en omdat iedereen je te oud vind, kan vader staat je nu een borstel in de hand duwen en je wat straatstenen toewijzen. Voor €1,3 per uur!
I’m surprised at the pushback on this.
I feel for people who lose their jobs and I understand it can be difficult to find a new job in the same field or reorient themselves.
But is it so unreasonable that after two whole years of being unemployed whilst you are not ill or disabled or studying or otherwise unfit, the society asks you to undertake some extra tasks for a max of 64 hours per month?
Those people can get some extra drive to search for work if they don’t like the community service or they might actually relearn some basic skills on community service and they even get something in return for that too.
Its ludicrous people are yelling slavery or economic bandage over this. Society implies a both way exchange, not a system where endless profiteering from other people’s social contributions is allowed. This system satisfies both ends.
Moderne slavenarbeid. Echt niet mee akkoord.
64 uren vegen en je wordt sociaal!
The UK tried this a few years ago. It mainly lead to people dropping out of the system alltogether and had no meaningful impact on employment. [source](https://twitter.com/matthias_somers/status/1471399695188692993)
Such a system has no demonstrable practical benefits and only serves as a symbolic measure, ranging from “look, we’re doing something about the problem” at best and “let’s punish those freeloaders” at worst.
Mijn vermoeden is dat deze mensen onderandere ingezet zullen worden om de zorgsector te ‘redden’. Kwaliteit van zorg bestaat toch al niet meer, en het kan niet goedkoop genoeg zijn tegenwoordig. Ik vind ook dat mensen betaald mogen worden voor hun werk.
Noem het dan gewoon dat ze die mensen goedkoop in dienst willen hebben voor klussen waarvoor niemand anders wilt betalen. Dat belerende arrogante toontje van “het is voor je eigen sociale vaardigheden”…
Why is it that every single time some dumbass idea comes up, it’s always the same few politicians?
Every single time I think wtf is that idea, it comes from Crevits, Wyts or Van Quickenborne. I might forget a few, but mostly those 3.
If you’re unemployed for two years straight, you either don’t want to work and are content with getting €800/month (quite unlikely), or you’re a disabled person trying to fight against all odds through discrimination and lack of support to achieve employment and independence.
You won’t get much out of the tiny first group anyways, and you punish the latter group which is already struggling far more than anyone else when they could just go on disability and be free to do what they want 24/7.
There are already few good volunteering jobs. The good ones get taken instantly. What’s left is mostly positions that make me think “you’re not getting anyone to do all of this unless you pay them fulltime”. There’s no way the government can just create more meaningful productive jobs. Sheltered workshops are close to slavery already and only exist because of subsidies, which end in the pockets of the non-disabled people that run the place instead of the (usually intellectually) disabled workers. There’s a reason for the last part by the way. They’re easier to exploit than other disabled people who can speak up for themselves and understand when they’re being exploited.
The main reason they want to do this is to create more competition on the job market which will force wages down, fatten CEO wallets, and create more demand for cheap labor.
The only thing it will do is further alienate the unemployed from the community. Not only do they barely get paid anything, it also makes them even more of an outsider.
I’m so sick of this neo-liberal propaganda. The unemployed are not a drain on the economy who need to be squeezed out of existence. They are human beings who need to be treated with dignity. They are not the enemy of the people.
Also, the argument that “community service” will help them “retain social skills” is complete bullshit.
En wat is hier anders aan dan taakstraffen die criminelen soms moeten doen?
I imagine the tasks will be things like street cleaning, collecting leaves and other gardening activities.
What will happen to the people currently doing that kind of thing?
This creates a risk of people losing their jobs to be replaced by unemployed people for a lower cost. So there need to be decent safeguards to make sure that does not happen.
If those are provided, there are good parts to a system like this. Someone who’s been unemployed long term, gets into a rut that makes it even harder to find a new job. There’s no reason to get up in the morning anymore. Getting a bit of routine in their life, helps with this. They will indeed also (re)learn social skills. If you’ve been unemployed for two years but you are willing to work, you’re probably pretty keen on actually feeling useful.
It’s anecdotal, but I recently heard from someone whose job is finding ‘useful activities’ for people that can’t function in the regular workforce (lack of language skills, psychological problems, extreme marginalization,….). They often don’t even get regular unemployment and have to live on a minimum income. It takes individual care and effort, but once they find an activity (which is unpaid), their situation can improve dramatically. Those people also like what they’re doing to such an extent, that when the government said they were free from their obligation during Corona, they often still continued to go to “work”. If we apply this to people that are involuntary unemployed, there is no reason we can’t help those in the same way.
But again, this can only work if we make sure there won’t be any actual jobs that get replaced by community service.
Speaking from experience, sometimes you just need a push out the door. I got fired from my first job and was unemployed for 4 months. My day/night cycle basically got inverted, I went to sleep at 5 am and slept till the afternoon, and pretty much didn’t even know what day it was by the end. I can imagine that after 24 months the simple things like getting up at 6:30 and being there on time seem like insurmountable obstacles.
I do hope they find some useful jobs though, like going shopping for the elderly or managing traffic at pedestrian crossings near schools or something. They should walk away from with a feeling of having accomplished something.
Forced labour and modern slavery is back. SMH.
> Vereniging van Vlaamse steden en gemeenten (VVSG)
Wait, so CD&V runs a union for cities against the government? Isn’t this completely useless?
Y’all need a big fucking helping of reality. These [charts](https://www.nbb.be/nl/publicaties-en-onderzoek/statistische-ontwikkelingen-inzake-werkgelegenheid/arbeidsmarkt-8) show the state of our [labour market.](https://bestat.statbel.fgov.be/bestat/crosstable.xhtml?view=577e7eeb-dc77-4461-b190-9164ad1da877) Do you think it’s possible to sustain, let alone expand, our extensive welfare state with just 70% of the working population (=18-65 year olds)?
I constantly see people on this sub complaining about: their wages not increasing enough, social security being underfunded, schools being underfunded, high work pressure, high taxes,… Well guess what? **This is the core issue**. There’s only around 5 million Belgians providing for the other 6 million and that will further decrease in the coming years. That’s simply not sustainable. Of course those working aren’t going to feel like working anymore because in order for social security to be paid, those working need to get squeezed hard. Labour experts have been saying it for years: there aren’t enough shoulders to bear the burden. Two options: reduce welfare or get more people contributing to the system.
You can’t have it both ways.
We’re falling straight into a [welfare trap](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_trap#:~:text=The%20welfare%20trap%20(or%20unemployment,no%20significant%20increase%20in%20total) if we don’t do something about this, as [this paper](https://econpapers.repec.org/cpd/2002/93_DeGreef.pdf) shows. Notice how even the authors suggest giving the unemployed a chance to get more work experience.
Heel goed iniatief. Ik werk elke dag met mensen die alles hebben opgegeven en van smorgens tot s’avonds in bed blijven liggen, volledig lam-gesubsidieerd.