>#Millions will shun trains for ever, goverment tells unions
>__Ministers fear permanent harm from worst disruption in 30 years__
>Steven Swinford, Political Editor | Andrew Ellson | Dominic Hauschild | Tom Howard
>Monday January 02 2023, 9.00pm GMT, The Times
>A generation of passengers will be put off travelling by train for good because of industrial action, ministers fear, as Britain enters the worst week of rail disruption for 30 years.
>Millions of people have been advised to avoid using the railways as the country faces five days of industrial action, effectively delaying the return to offices by a week as an estimated 80,000 trains are cancelled.
>The Rail, Maritime and Transport (RMT) union is staging two 48-hour walkouts on Tuesday and Friday, and drivers from the Aslef union will strike on Thursday. Rail industry sources have claimed that 16 million journeys could be affected this week.
>Ministers and the industry are increasingly concerned that the strikes are doing long-term damage to rail travel while costing taxpayers hundreds of millions of pounds. Rail travel is already significantly below pre-pandemic levels because of the rise in the number of people who are now choosing to work from home.
>A government source said: “This is an act of self-harm — a generation of passengers will just write off the railways. We’re talking about permanent scarring. The longer the strikes continue, the greater the risk.”
>There are no signs of a resolution. Mick Lynch, general secretary of the RMT, accused the government of blocking a deal and said that “unprecedented ministerial interference” was hampering the train companies in negotiations.
>He said: “The train companies say their hands have been tied by the government, while the government, which does not employ us, says it’s up to the companies to negotiate with us. We are always happy to negotiate — we never refuse to sit down at the table and talk — but these companies have offered us nothing, and that is unacceptable.”
>Passengers, including those returning to work after the festive break, have been warned to expect “significant disruption” as only a limited number of trains will run. They have been advised to travel only if absolutely necessary, to allow extra time and check when first and last trains will depart. There may also be disruption to services on January 8 as workers return to their duties.
>On RMT strike days about half the network will shut down, with about 20 per cent of normal services running. Services that do run will start later and finish earlier than usual, with trains typically running between 7.30am and 6.30pm on the day of the strike.
>The train drivers’ strike on Thursday will affect 15 operators and will result in even fewer services running, with some companies offering “very significantly reduced” timetables.
>Daniel Mann, director of industry operations at the Rail Delivery Group, said: “No one wants to see these strikes go ahead and we can only apologise to passengers and to the many businesses who will be hit by this unnecessary and damaging disruption. We would advise passengers to only travel if it is absolutely necessary during this period, allow extra time and check when their first and last train will depart.”
>The hospitality industry called on Monday for an end to the strikes as restaurants, pubs and bars braced themselves for another £200 million hit to their takings this week. The cancellation of rail services is estimated to have already cost the industry £1.5 billion in lost sales over the festive period.
>Kate Nicholls, the chief executive of UKHospitality, which represents pubs, hotels and restaurants, said the latest industrial action would make city centres “ghost towns for yet another week”, adding: “This piles further misery on commuters, visitors and tourists as well as hard-pressed hospitality workers and businesses already vulnerable due to the loss of vital pre-Christmas sales. The sector has struggled to recover from Covid and these protracted rail strikes since May have made that bounceback much tougher. Enough is enough; this needs to end now.”
>Emma McClarkin, chief executive of the British Beer and Pub Association, called on the unions, rail companies and the government to find a solution to avoid “delivering another catastrophic blow to our already struggling industry”.
>A rail industry source said: “With dissatisfaction levels rising, the strikes clearly risk a permanent decline in train journeys. That is bad for the industry, the environment and our hard-working staff. The customers we depend on are likely to become more disillusioned and many will abandon the railway.”
>Unions rejected claims yesterday that they were running out of money. The Public and Commercial Services union told Times Radio that industrial action could continue until summer.
>Dave Penman, head of the FDA civil service union, said that the government’s planned anti-strike legislation would have little impact given the scale of turnouts.
I doubt it. First, many don’t have other options. Second, this is hardly as big a deal as Covid and plenty of people went back to using them after that. Hence why we are here.
The only thing damaging train travel is the extortionate train fares due to privatisation, if we’re honest.
Can just see it 10 years from now. “oh dad I won’t be taking the train because in 2022/3 network rail staff went on strike for the first time in their companies history”
RMT have been trying to arrange talks all over the Xmas period since the 15 when the last talks were. Network rail were either unwilling or unable to attend talks. Had the government not stuck it’s fingers in and demanded DOO for the train operators then their strikes wouldn’t be going ahead at all.
I’ve actually opted to start using trains over hire cars for my airport runs (works travel), in solidarity. I’m 100% behind the industrial action. The top have taken the p**s now, greedy execs have done this, not the workers trying to housr/feed/warm their families.
Millions will shun Conservatives forever, unions tell government…
I won’t shun trains, don’t know what you on about here, mate.
I shun trains because before I could afford a car I had to use them quite a bit and the prices were fucking high plus a few inconsiderate passengers ruin it for everyone
Surely that should be an incentive for the companies to make a deal, they are hamming their long term profits
Right. Course they will. And union’s fault of course. Nothing to do with sixty plus years of dismantling rail infrastructure then selling off anything that wasnt nailed down, plus some that was, leaving thdnrw oruvaye owners to continue dismantling and not investing. Nope, unrelated to that.
People who have had to start using cars will not give them up easily. The bulk of the commitment is before you start, finance, tax, first insurance payment. Mile for mile the fuel cost is still not that much. You also stay warm and dry and travel door to door.
Train services have been unacceptably shit for years, I always avoid rail if I can bc it’s so expensive, unsafe and unreliable. If these strikes can at least get fair pay for railworkers I’m for them.
I mean, they won’t. That’s just not how these things work. That’s hyperbole and they know it.
What most people are missing is every other railway in the world is subsidised very heavily or run by the government directly it’s a service not a private organisation so it’s going to be a lot cheaper at the point of sale but you will pay for it in your taxes
People will shun trains due to how ridiculous the ticket prices are becoming rather than underpaid and exploited workers going on strike.
I live in a town where the only service is northern.
Some examples of northern line.
I was on a pacer train once which caught fire, they put the fire out and continued the journey, it caught fire again a little while later and they repeated the process.
Had to wait an hour on a train once because someone was stabbed on the train.
80% cancellation rate on the commuter service the last year I commuted. Now I work from home.
Doors used to stick, had to ride to the next stop more than once.
Underinvestment for decades and trains that were supposed to be retired in 1995. Time to nationalise.
Fares will kill the trains. Not the workers working on them.
Jesus. These ministers are dumber than dumb.
A sensible approach to Climate Change would be to build-up rail and get people a few more steps away from cars and planes.
The conservatives are so out of touch they have no idea what normal people are thinking… Scary they don’t realise how essential train travel is for most people.
I avoid trains as much as possible, but that’s got nothing to do with the strikes and everything to do with the abysmal service at eye watering prices.
No they won’t as this government tries to make owning a car yet another thing out of reach of the average working person we’ll become more reliant on trains and an ever dwindling public transport system
More government scaremongering. What stops people using trains is the extortionate fares. It’s quicker and cheaper to fly from City Airport to Edinburgh than to take the train from Kings Cross.
Apart from generally poor service a lot of the time, train prices are a major issue. They keep going up every year, for basically no improvement to the service.
I have a trip coming up, and tickets ranged from £50ish all the way up to £180! It actually ended up being cheaper overall to book a flight from Manchester to Gatwick (via Dublin) – with a night hotel in Dublin. As well as trains to/from the airport, than to get a direct train (with 1-2 changes plus bus replacements)! That’s just stupid, but that’s what I did as it was a better use of money. So I get a mini trip out of it rather than sitting on an overcrowded train for hours.
Last year I basically got 1/3rd of my trips for free or at least partially refunded, because the trains were delayed all the time too. Kind of counterproductive basically giving everyone free/reduced tickets because services are so bad.
Even 10 years ago at uni, I’d travel 3-4hrs home. Back then it was maybe £35ish for a ticket? Far cheaper than now, but I literally had to stand for 2-3 of those hours every time since there was no seating left. 10 years later it has probably just become worse.
Doubt
It’s the only way to work for most in London, so we’ll all still use it
Power to the Unions
Off course, we’ll just ask Jeves to get the Rolls Royce ready.
I take the train whenever I can, which is about once a year. We need more routes, trains, lines, stations. But this government and it’s donor-firms can’t even staff the network it has!
Lol.
Due to extortionate prices. Waiting around in the cold for late trains. And having to endure the British public, I have never relied on trains since the day I got a car.
Fuck public transport in this country. Trains go from the ass end of nowhere to the edge of the city you want to go to so you still end up walking or taking taxis anyway. And it will never get better, ever.
I already do… Trains have been overpriced and unreliable for a long time, and they’re impractical unless it is just one of you with a small bag…
Conservative Govt’s spent decades misguidedly selling off the furniture and now expect workers to subsidise the resultant mess from their own pockets
If the roads seem grid locked now heaven help us if folk stop using the trains because of the intransigence of the negotiations and government ignoring the facts
I love all public transport. I just cannot afford to use trains anymore.
The biggest reason people shun trains is they are not affordable
I shun trains because the service and state of the trains are absolute garbage, and the prices are extortionate.
I’d love to use my car less really, but until train travel is cheaper and more convenient I’ll have to keep using it.
I shun trains already, would sooner hire a car. But that was the reality before the strikes.
What you mean like when the government close down the ticket offices? That kind of shun?
Surely most people catch a train through necessity to ge to work/shopping/visit family or friends etc? Its not like people have a choice if you dont have a car
Yes buses exist but often arent direct so take ages
Doubt it more like I stopped using trains because the company running them kept changing times and cancelled them and charged me more than I earn a week for the pleasure of it
I used to use trains when feasible. I have lost confidence and it will take a lot to get it back.
Bullshit. How about if the unions throw some hooky PPE into the deal? Tories have got billions to throw at that.
Incredible that we have a government that takes a fight with its people rather than cares for their prosperity. I guess it prefers to work for the share investors than for the world force
Why bother paying for trains when there are strikes out of nowhere? Might as well spend on coaches – cheaper and easier to manage.
I doubt it, trains are a monopoly service, no choice for many.
Having just looked up the price of a weekday day return rail ticket to Birmingham, I will be driving the 90 minutes and parking instead – saving a significant amount
The problem here is you’re linking to the times. Might as well link to the daily mail for accuracy, wouldn’t surprise me if they made it up for click bait. 🙂
I’m shunning trains NOW you dickheads. It £200 return to Swindon from a commuter station just outside London, what a joke.
45 comments
>#Millions will shun trains for ever, goverment tells unions
>__Ministers fear permanent harm from worst disruption in 30 years__
>Steven Swinford, Political Editor | Andrew Ellson | Dominic Hauschild | Tom Howard
>Monday January 02 2023, 9.00pm GMT, The Times
>A generation of passengers will be put off travelling by train for good because of industrial action, ministers fear, as Britain enters the worst week of rail disruption for 30 years.
>Millions of people have been advised to avoid using the railways as the country faces five days of industrial action, effectively delaying the return to offices by a week as an estimated 80,000 trains are cancelled.
>The Rail, Maritime and Transport (RMT) union is staging two 48-hour walkouts on Tuesday and Friday, and drivers from the Aslef union will strike on Thursday. Rail industry sources have claimed that 16 million journeys could be affected this week.
>Ministers and the industry are increasingly concerned that the strikes are doing long-term damage to rail travel while costing taxpayers hundreds of millions of pounds. Rail travel is already significantly below pre-pandemic levels because of the rise in the number of people who are now choosing to work from home.
>A government source said: “This is an act of self-harm — a generation of passengers will just write off the railways. We’re talking about permanent scarring. The longer the strikes continue, the greater the risk.”
>There are no signs of a resolution. Mick Lynch, general secretary of the RMT, accused the government of blocking a deal and said that “unprecedented ministerial interference” was hampering the train companies in negotiations.
>He said: “The train companies say their hands have been tied by the government, while the government, which does not employ us, says it’s up to the companies to negotiate with us. We are always happy to negotiate — we never refuse to sit down at the table and talk — but these companies have offered us nothing, and that is unacceptable.”
>Passengers, including those returning to work after the festive break, have been warned to expect “significant disruption” as only a limited number of trains will run. They have been advised to travel only if absolutely necessary, to allow extra time and check when first and last trains will depart. There may also be disruption to services on January 8 as workers return to their duties.
>On RMT strike days about half the network will shut down, with about 20 per cent of normal services running. Services that do run will start later and finish earlier than usual, with trains typically running between 7.30am and 6.30pm on the day of the strike.
>The train drivers’ strike on Thursday will affect 15 operators and will result in even fewer services running, with some companies offering “very significantly reduced” timetables.
>Daniel Mann, director of industry operations at the Rail Delivery Group, said: “No one wants to see these strikes go ahead and we can only apologise to passengers and to the many businesses who will be hit by this unnecessary and damaging disruption. We would advise passengers to only travel if it is absolutely necessary during this period, allow extra time and check when their first and last train will depart.”
>The hospitality industry called on Monday for an end to the strikes as restaurants, pubs and bars braced themselves for another £200 million hit to their takings this week. The cancellation of rail services is estimated to have already cost the industry £1.5 billion in lost sales over the festive period.
>Kate Nicholls, the chief executive of UKHospitality, which represents pubs, hotels and restaurants, said the latest industrial action would make city centres “ghost towns for yet another week”, adding: “This piles further misery on commuters, visitors and tourists as well as hard-pressed hospitality workers and businesses already vulnerable due to the loss of vital pre-Christmas sales. The sector has struggled to recover from Covid and these protracted rail strikes since May have made that bounceback much tougher. Enough is enough; this needs to end now.”
>Emma McClarkin, chief executive of the British Beer and Pub Association, called on the unions, rail companies and the government to find a solution to avoid “delivering another catastrophic blow to our already struggling industry”.
>A rail industry source said: “With dissatisfaction levels rising, the strikes clearly risk a permanent decline in train journeys. That is bad for the industry, the environment and our hard-working staff. The customers we depend on are likely to become more disillusioned and many will abandon the railway.”
>Unions rejected claims yesterday that they were running out of money. The Public and Commercial Services union told Times Radio that industrial action could continue until summer.
>Dave Penman, head of the FDA civil service union, said that the government’s planned anti-strike legislation would have little impact given the scale of turnouts.
I doubt it. First, many don’t have other options. Second, this is hardly as big a deal as Covid and plenty of people went back to using them after that. Hence why we are here.
The only thing damaging train travel is the extortionate train fares due to privatisation, if we’re honest.
Can just see it 10 years from now. “oh dad I won’t be taking the train because in 2022/3 network rail staff went on strike for the first time in their companies history”
RMT have been trying to arrange talks all over the Xmas period since the 15 when the last talks were. Network rail were either unwilling or unable to attend talks. Had the government not stuck it’s fingers in and demanded DOO for the train operators then their strikes wouldn’t be going ahead at all.
I’ve actually opted to start using trains over hire cars for my airport runs (works travel), in solidarity. I’m 100% behind the industrial action. The top have taken the p**s now, greedy execs have done this, not the workers trying to housr/feed/warm their families.
Millions will shun Conservatives forever, unions tell government…
I won’t shun trains, don’t know what you on about here, mate.
I shun trains because before I could afford a car I had to use them quite a bit and the prices were fucking high plus a few inconsiderate passengers ruin it for everyone
Surely that should be an incentive for the companies to make a deal, they are hamming their long term profits
Right. Course they will. And union’s fault of course. Nothing to do with sixty plus years of dismantling rail infrastructure then selling off anything that wasnt nailed down, plus some that was, leaving thdnrw oruvaye owners to continue dismantling and not investing. Nope, unrelated to that.
People who have had to start using cars will not give them up easily. The bulk of the commitment is before you start, finance, tax, first insurance payment. Mile for mile the fuel cost is still not that much. You also stay warm and dry and travel door to door.
Train services have been unacceptably shit for years, I always avoid rail if I can bc it’s so expensive, unsafe and unreliable. If these strikes can at least get fair pay for railworkers I’m for them.
I mean, they won’t. That’s just not how these things work. That’s hyperbole and they know it.
What most people are missing is every other railway in the world is subsidised very heavily or run by the government directly it’s a service not a private organisation so it’s going to be a lot cheaper at the point of sale but you will pay for it in your taxes
People will shun trains due to how ridiculous the ticket prices are becoming rather than underpaid and exploited workers going on strike.
I live in a town where the only service is northern.
Some examples of northern line.
I was on a pacer train once which caught fire, they put the fire out and continued the journey, it caught fire again a little while later and they repeated the process.
Had to wait an hour on a train once because someone was stabbed on the train.
80% cancellation rate on the commuter service the last year I commuted. Now I work from home.
Doors used to stick, had to ride to the next stop more than once.
Underinvestment for decades and trains that were supposed to be retired in 1995. Time to nationalise.
Fares will kill the trains. Not the workers working on them.
Jesus. These ministers are dumber than dumb.
A sensible approach to Climate Change would be to build-up rail and get people a few more steps away from cars and planes.
The conservatives are so out of touch they have no idea what normal people are thinking… Scary they don’t realise how essential train travel is for most people.
I avoid trains as much as possible, but that’s got nothing to do with the strikes and everything to do with the abysmal service at eye watering prices.
No they won’t as this government tries to make owning a car yet another thing out of reach of the average working person we’ll become more reliant on trains and an ever dwindling public transport system
More government scaremongering. What stops people using trains is the extortionate fares. It’s quicker and cheaper to fly from City Airport to Edinburgh than to take the train from Kings Cross.
Apart from generally poor service a lot of the time, train prices are a major issue. They keep going up every year, for basically no improvement to the service.
I have a trip coming up, and tickets ranged from £50ish all the way up to £180! It actually ended up being cheaper overall to book a flight from Manchester to Gatwick (via Dublin) – with a night hotel in Dublin. As well as trains to/from the airport, than to get a direct train (with 1-2 changes plus bus replacements)! That’s just stupid, but that’s what I did as it was a better use of money. So I get a mini trip out of it rather than sitting on an overcrowded train for hours.
Last year I basically got 1/3rd of my trips for free or at least partially refunded, because the trains were delayed all the time too. Kind of counterproductive basically giving everyone free/reduced tickets because services are so bad.
Even 10 years ago at uni, I’d travel 3-4hrs home. Back then it was maybe £35ish for a ticket? Far cheaper than now, but I literally had to stand for 2-3 of those hours every time since there was no seating left. 10 years later it has probably just become worse.
Doubt
It’s the only way to work for most in London, so we’ll all still use it
Power to the Unions
Off course, we’ll just ask Jeves to get the Rolls Royce ready.
I take the train whenever I can, which is about once a year. We need more routes, trains, lines, stations. But this government and it’s donor-firms can’t even staff the network it has!
Lol.
Due to extortionate prices. Waiting around in the cold for late trains. And having to endure the British public, I have never relied on trains since the day I got a car.
Fuck public transport in this country. Trains go from the ass end of nowhere to the edge of the city you want to go to so you still end up walking or taking taxis anyway. And it will never get better, ever.
I already do… Trains have been overpriced and unreliable for a long time, and they’re impractical unless it is just one of you with a small bag…
Conservative Govt’s spent decades misguidedly selling off the furniture and now expect workers to subsidise the resultant mess from their own pockets
If the roads seem grid locked now heaven help us if folk stop using the trains because of the intransigence of the negotiations and government ignoring the facts
I love all public transport. I just cannot afford to use trains anymore.
The biggest reason people shun trains is they are not affordable
I shun trains because the service and state of the trains are absolute garbage, and the prices are extortionate.
I’d love to use my car less really, but until train travel is cheaper and more convenient I’ll have to keep using it.
I shun trains already, would sooner hire a car. But that was the reality before the strikes.
What you mean like when the government close down the ticket offices? That kind of shun?
Surely most people catch a train through necessity to ge to work/shopping/visit family or friends etc? Its not like people have a choice if you dont have a car
Yes buses exist but often arent direct so take ages
Doubt it more like I stopped using trains because the company running them kept changing times and cancelled them and charged me more than I earn a week for the pleasure of it
I used to use trains when feasible. I have lost confidence and it will take a lot to get it back.
Bullshit. How about if the unions throw some hooky PPE into the deal? Tories have got billions to throw at that.
Incredible that we have a government that takes a fight with its people rather than cares for their prosperity. I guess it prefers to work for the share investors than for the world force
Why bother paying for trains when there are strikes out of nowhere? Might as well spend on coaches – cheaper and easier to manage.
I doubt it, trains are a monopoly service, no choice for many.
Having just looked up the price of a weekday day return rail ticket to Birmingham, I will be driving the 90 minutes and parking instead – saving a significant amount
The problem here is you’re linking to the times. Might as well link to the daily mail for accuracy, wouldn’t surprise me if they made it up for click bait. 🙂
I’m shunning trains NOW you dickheads. It £200 return to Swindon from a commuter station just outside London, what a joke.