Comments 0% approved so far, I can see this is going to be one of *those* threads
Speaking as a middle aged straight gender confident man, I have no idea why official gender identification is in any way important outside medical records.
Is this really all just about who can use which toilet and who is going to win at sports or something? I honestly don’t understand why in the 21st century we need M or F on documents in order to identify people. Surely it would be easier to not bother?
Oh here we go. “Let’s bash the minority, but by a more moderate amount than the other party”.
Starmer et. al. are really going all in on tory-lite politics. Always nice to have to stomach the fact I’m actually going to be voting for these red tory maggots, but there we go, welcome to 2023 Britain!
I’m interested whether Starmer is following the advice of actual healthcare experts here or if he’s playing to elements of the English electorate again?
It looks like he cares more about these swing voters than either doing the right thing or even doing what most of Labours base actually want. It looks to be much the same tack with Brexit, the NHS and anything to do with Scotland.
I think I get the calculation: he reckons he needs a fair number of the people who thought Brexit and Boris and other right wing stuff on side to actually win a general election – or at least avoid scaring too many of them away. Meanwhile the core Labour vote won’t like it but will swallow it because they won’t want to risk another Tory government.
I can understand the strategy although it’s more than a little cynical. It doesn’t work anywhere there’s a realistic alternative however, like in Scotland (so I wouldn’t advise anyone holds their breath for a further ‘Labour recovery’ up here).
In fact Labour bending over backwards to placate the same fairly right wing part of the English electorate responsible for so much of the crap over the past twelve years does very little for the Unionist case at all. Quite the reverse.
Meanwhile we will let young people shove fillers in their face, and suck out the fat and all other strange cosmetic surgery.
I guess gender transitions might help mental health. Can’t have that!
OK so let me get this straight. At 16 in the UK you can:
* Get married.
* Have sex.
* Have a baby
* Join the Army
* Vote (in Scotland)
* Move out of your parents house and live on your own
But Keir doesn’t think you can know if you are trans yet? Personally (and I know this is a controversial opinion) if you are too young to know your gender identity then maybe you should be too young to have a baby or join the army, because having a baby and joining the army are bigger things than being able to change your legal gender.
But then again, the state is happy to let 16 year olds die for the rich and shit out new future workers.
What is the point of Starmer as leader of the opposition if he’s too spineless to actually disagree with the tories on anything?
He even says he’s going to wait to see what the government does before deciding what his position is. It’s pathetic.
I’m not sure what my opinion on this is yet. Yes sure, trans rights and all, i have no issue with that. However there’s a not insignificant people who transition young and end up regretting it. Tons of horror stories on r/detrans
I’d think a lot more research would have to be done to figure out the rates of people de-transitioning and the potential risks for such a decision at a young age.
For context the Scottish Labour party voted in favour of this bill
How embarrassing for them to be thrown under the bus by Starmer after voting in favour of it. Is there any communication within the Labour party between the Scottish branch and head office?
There is some tension I guess between trying to help people and trying to protect them. It sounds a bit condescending but as an adult looking back I wouldn’t want to have been allowed to make too many major decisions at 16. Frankly I was headstrong, opinionated and not even 10% as smart as I thought I was. It’s also a really dynamic social situation you’re in and peer pressure can be extremely hard to refuse. Compounded even further by puberty, exams, and social media it’s just not a great situation to try and make decisions from.
I’m not by any means saying that people who are having doubts about their gender are only responding to peer pressure, but given how much more high profile and widespread transgender issues have become in the last few years it’s hard not to see some elements of a trend in it.
Having said all that though, I guess the realisation has to be there that some people do suffer from gender issues which are going to persist for their whole lives. I guess the right help needs to be in place for them to fix that in whatever way works best. While providing some guardrails to make sure that decisions that you make when you are 16 don’t create too much of a rod for your own back when you are 30.
Given all that, I guess that you have to argue that if there is going to be easy access to change gender when you are 16, there has to be an easy offramp so that you can change back when you are 19 just as easily. And it needs to be less of a societal big deal to do this as many times as you need to, because the last thing we want is for people to feel that there is too much social momentum for them to have a change of heart. Especially since once you start down the actual hard road of gender transition it’s impossible to walk some of those elements back.
I’m sick of Starmer and I’m sick of Sunak and the Tories too. Can somebody please start a new party that we can actually vote for in good conscience?
If they change their mind they can change it back, I don’t see an issue
EDIT: I meant the legal gender. Nobody at 16 is going to get treatment any time soon in this country, which would be more difficult to change back. But paperwork is just paperwork
Ok so don’t copy what we are doing in Scotland then. But don’t fucking block us doing it if we want to.
Too many people in this thread with blatent misinformation to respond to all. Anyone interested in the topic be extremely doubtful of comments acting like kids just swap gender instantly as soon as they decide to, implying healthcare tries to persuade kids to transition, or acting like detransition is a common occurrence ignoring the reasons behind detransitioning. Also read into the beneficial effects of transitioning.
Edit: also, regarding the recent Scottish law, anyone acting like it secures any rights for trans people like accessing new spaces or that it goes against the equality act is also uninformed. The bill specifically does not affect the equality act (it’s written in the law) and just affects the gender on wedding and death certificates. It’s hard to convince people you’re fighting for women’s rights by calling dead trans people the wrong gender though, so there’s been a lot of extra fearmongering for that.
Gender identity stuff seems to occur in a consolidated way before age 5, with dysphoria appearing between 4 and 7. The idea that a 16 year old can’t know their gender is fucking stupid.
A shameful indictment of the UK that we have to deal with so many anti-science and anti-medicine people that politicians have to tickle their dusty pickles to get ahead. It’s a statement clearly not borne of scientific evidence and instead borne of angsty Mumsnet mouth breathers.
Isn’t the bill in Scotland just to change gender on documents? I can’t really understand why anyone would have an issue with changing a letter on a piece of paper.
If there is anyone who is strongly opposed can you explain why as I really don’t understand.
I get the whole not medically transitioning too young argument, but don’t see what relevance that has here.
Starmer: You know, I don’t really give a shit about trans people.
Trans people and their allies: Well fuck you too, guess I’m not voting for Starmer.
Starmerites: WOW YOU ARE LITERALLY VOTING FOR THE TORIES. THIS IS ALL YOUR FAULT.
The problem with Keir Starmer is that I have no idea if he believes any of this or if he’s just playing to the shitmunchers.
I see a lot of people here concerned about teenagers making decisions that could have long lasting effects.
The reality is beyond changing their gender markers anything else is years away from taking place. I was referred to a Gender Identity Clinic over 18 months ago. So far I have not even had a date for a first appointment let alone started any form of treatment.
There appears to be the impression that you can just walk into your GP and have them lop things off and send you home with your HRT. In actuality most people transitioning are gonna have a hell of a long time to ponder if it is really what they want.
I’m so glad we are spending time talking about what age someone can have independent thought rather than tackling the climate crisis, the NHS crisis, the economic crisis, the train strikes, political reform, or any one of the hundreds of big issues that are hurting the 99% every day.
Stop falling for the culture wars bullshit.
My opinion on this is, let the medical professionals figure it out. He’s a lawyer, not a psychiatrist or medical physician.
So by all means if you get into power create a committee to figure out the right thing to do, just make sure that committee is full of accredited medical professionals who deal with this subject and do what they conclude should be done.
I don’t want our laws and policies driven by gut decisions, I want professionals listened to.
I wouldn’t trust most sixteen year olds to put their trousers on the right way round.
Am I right in thinking this doesn’t even include changes in sex? So it’s just Keir saying (in line with all the Tories) that 16 is too young even for something that’s not even a lasting medical change.
Changinh an F to a M or a M to an F on a form is reversible. Suicide isn’t. Don’t really see why it matters to Starmer if a letter on paper is changed but he’s ok with people being miserable for a few extra years.
But clearly old enough to get married, leave home, fight for your country in war, have sex and buy liquor chocolates.
If I was old enough to risk lifelong ptsd and death when I was 16 then a person with a blue, white and pink flag in their twitter bio is old enough to change legal gender
25 comments
Comments 0% approved so far, I can see this is going to be one of *those* threads
Speaking as a middle aged straight gender confident man, I have no idea why official gender identification is in any way important outside medical records.
Is this really all just about who can use which toilet and who is going to win at sports or something? I honestly don’t understand why in the 21st century we need M or F on documents in order to identify people. Surely it would be easier to not bother?
Oh here we go. “Let’s bash the minority, but by a more moderate amount than the other party”.
Starmer et. al. are really going all in on tory-lite politics. Always nice to have to stomach the fact I’m actually going to be voting for these red tory maggots, but there we go, welcome to 2023 Britain!
I’m interested whether Starmer is following the advice of actual healthcare experts here or if he’s playing to elements of the English electorate again?
It looks like he cares more about these swing voters than either doing the right thing or even doing what most of Labours base actually want. It looks to be much the same tack with Brexit, the NHS and anything to do with Scotland.
I think I get the calculation: he reckons he needs a fair number of the people who thought Brexit and Boris and other right wing stuff on side to actually win a general election – or at least avoid scaring too many of them away. Meanwhile the core Labour vote won’t like it but will swallow it because they won’t want to risk another Tory government.
I can understand the strategy although it’s more than a little cynical. It doesn’t work anywhere there’s a realistic alternative however, like in Scotland (so I wouldn’t advise anyone holds their breath for a further ‘Labour recovery’ up here).
In fact Labour bending over backwards to placate the same fairly right wing part of the English electorate responsible for so much of the crap over the past twelve years does very little for the Unionist case at all. Quite the reverse.
Meanwhile we will let young people shove fillers in their face, and suck out the fat and all other strange cosmetic surgery.
I guess gender transitions might help mental health. Can’t have that!
OK so let me get this straight. At 16 in the UK you can:
* Get married.
* Have sex.
* Have a baby
* Join the Army
* Vote (in Scotland)
* Move out of your parents house and live on your own
But Keir doesn’t think you can know if you are trans yet? Personally (and I know this is a controversial opinion) if you are too young to know your gender identity then maybe you should be too young to have a baby or join the army, because having a baby and joining the army are bigger things than being able to change your legal gender.
But then again, the state is happy to let 16 year olds die for the rich and shit out new future workers.
What is the point of Starmer as leader of the opposition if he’s too spineless to actually disagree with the tories on anything?
He even says he’s going to wait to see what the government does before deciding what his position is. It’s pathetic.
I’m not sure what my opinion on this is yet. Yes sure, trans rights and all, i have no issue with that. However there’s a not insignificant people who transition young and end up regretting it. Tons of horror stories on r/detrans
I’d think a lot more research would have to be done to figure out the rates of people de-transitioning and the potential risks for such a decision at a young age.
For context the Scottish Labour party voted in favour of this bill
How embarrassing for them to be thrown under the bus by Starmer after voting in favour of it. Is there any communication within the Labour party between the Scottish branch and head office?
There is some tension I guess between trying to help people and trying to protect them. It sounds a bit condescending but as an adult looking back I wouldn’t want to have been allowed to make too many major decisions at 16. Frankly I was headstrong, opinionated and not even 10% as smart as I thought I was. It’s also a really dynamic social situation you’re in and peer pressure can be extremely hard to refuse. Compounded even further by puberty, exams, and social media it’s just not a great situation to try and make decisions from.
I’m not by any means saying that people who are having doubts about their gender are only responding to peer pressure, but given how much more high profile and widespread transgender issues have become in the last few years it’s hard not to see some elements of a trend in it.
Having said all that though, I guess the realisation has to be there that some people do suffer from gender issues which are going to persist for their whole lives. I guess the right help needs to be in place for them to fix that in whatever way works best. While providing some guardrails to make sure that decisions that you make when you are 16 don’t create too much of a rod for your own back when you are 30.
Given all that, I guess that you have to argue that if there is going to be easy access to change gender when you are 16, there has to be an easy offramp so that you can change back when you are 19 just as easily. And it needs to be less of a societal big deal to do this as many times as you need to, because the last thing we want is for people to feel that there is too much social momentum for them to have a change of heart. Especially since once you start down the actual hard road of gender transition it’s impossible to walk some of those elements back.
I’m sick of Starmer and I’m sick of Sunak and the Tories too. Can somebody please start a new party that we can actually vote for in good conscience?
If they change their mind they can change it back, I don’t see an issue
EDIT: I meant the legal gender. Nobody at 16 is going to get treatment any time soon in this country, which would be more difficult to change back. But paperwork is just paperwork
Ok so don’t copy what we are doing in Scotland then. But don’t fucking block us doing it if we want to.
Too many people in this thread with blatent misinformation to respond to all. Anyone interested in the topic be extremely doubtful of comments acting like kids just swap gender instantly as soon as they decide to, implying healthcare tries to persuade kids to transition, or acting like detransition is a common occurrence ignoring the reasons behind detransitioning. Also read into the beneficial effects of transitioning.
Edit: also, regarding the recent Scottish law, anyone acting like it secures any rights for trans people like accessing new spaces or that it goes against the equality act is also uninformed. The bill specifically does not affect the equality act (it’s written in the law) and just affects the gender on wedding and death certificates. It’s hard to convince people you’re fighting for women’s rights by calling dead trans people the wrong gender though, so there’s been a lot of extra fearmongering for that.
Gender identity stuff seems to occur in a consolidated way before age 5, with dysphoria appearing between 4 and 7. The idea that a 16 year old can’t know their gender is fucking stupid.
A shameful indictment of the UK that we have to deal with so many anti-science and anti-medicine people that politicians have to tickle their dusty pickles to get ahead. It’s a statement clearly not borne of scientific evidence and instead borne of angsty Mumsnet mouth breathers.
Isn’t the bill in Scotland just to change gender on documents? I can’t really understand why anyone would have an issue with changing a letter on a piece of paper.
If there is anyone who is strongly opposed can you explain why as I really don’t understand.
I get the whole not medically transitioning too young argument, but don’t see what relevance that has here.
Starmer: You know, I don’t really give a shit about trans people.
Trans people and their allies: Well fuck you too, guess I’m not voting for Starmer.
Starmerites: WOW YOU ARE LITERALLY VOTING FOR THE TORIES. THIS IS ALL YOUR FAULT.
The problem with Keir Starmer is that I have no idea if he believes any of this or if he’s just playing to the shitmunchers.
I see a lot of people here concerned about teenagers making decisions that could have long lasting effects.
The reality is beyond changing their gender markers anything else is years away from taking place. I was referred to a Gender Identity Clinic over 18 months ago. So far I have not even had a date for a first appointment let alone started any form of treatment.
There appears to be the impression that you can just walk into your GP and have them lop things off and send you home with your HRT. In actuality most people transitioning are gonna have a hell of a long time to ponder if it is really what they want.
I’m so glad we are spending time talking about what age someone can have independent thought rather than tackling the climate crisis, the NHS crisis, the economic crisis, the train strikes, political reform, or any one of the hundreds of big issues that are hurting the 99% every day.
Stop falling for the culture wars bullshit.
My opinion on this is, let the medical professionals figure it out. He’s a lawyer, not a psychiatrist or medical physician.
So by all means if you get into power create a committee to figure out the right thing to do, just make sure that committee is full of accredited medical professionals who deal with this subject and do what they conclude should be done.
I don’t want our laws and policies driven by gut decisions, I want professionals listened to.
I wouldn’t trust most sixteen year olds to put their trousers on the right way round.
Am I right in thinking this doesn’t even include changes in sex? So it’s just Keir saying (in line with all the Tories) that 16 is too young even for something that’s not even a lasting medical change.
Changinh an F to a M or a M to an F on a form is reversible. Suicide isn’t. Don’t really see why it matters to Starmer if a letter on paper is changed but he’s ok with people being miserable for a few extra years.
But clearly old enough to get married, leave home, fight for your country in war, have sex and buy liquor chocolates.
If I was old enough to risk lifelong ptsd and death when I was 16 then a person with a blue, white and pink flag in their twitter bio is old enough to change legal gender