> **[War in Ukraine: Emmanuel Macron wants “the defeat” of Russia, but without “crushing” it](https://www.lefigaro.fr/international/guerre-en-ukraine-emmanuel-macron-veut-la-defaite-de-la-russie-mais-sans-l-ecraser-20230218)**
>
> The President of the Republic confided in Le Figaro, the Journal du dimanche and France Inter in the plane that brought him back from the Munich Security Conference.
>
> In the plane that brought him back from the Munich Security Conference, Emmanuel Macron confided in Le Figaro, the Journal du dimanche and France Inter. He said he wanted “the defeat” of Moscow in the face of Ukraine, while warning those who want “above all crush Russia”, which will “never” be the “position of France”.
>
> “I want the defeat of Russia in Ukraine and I want Ukraine to be able to defend its position, but I am convinced that in the end it will not conclude militarily,” the French head of state told us. “I do not think, as some people do, that Russia must be defeated completely, attacking it on its soil. These observers want above all to crush Russia. This has never been the position of France and it will never be,” he added.
>
> **Encourage negotiations**
>
> These observers seem in his mind to be those who, especially in Eastern Europe, are more up to the mark and had sharply criticized in May 2022 his words that it should not “humiliate” Russia. In this interview conducted Friday evening on the plane returning from Germany, where he attended the annual Munich conference on security, the president reaffirms his desire to promote a negotiated outcome.
>
> In his speech in the Bavarian city, he had already estimated that Russia had to “fail” in Ukraine, but some observers had criticized him for not having gone so far as to mention a necessary “defeat” of Moscow. He had also explained that it was necessary to “intensify” support for Kiev in order to move towards “credible negotiations”.
>
> **Putin, the best solution in the current Russian system?**
>
> “What is needed today is for Ukraine to carry out a military offensive that disrupts the Russian front in order to trigger a return to negotiations,” he insisted to Le Figaro, JDD and France Inter. According to him, “neither side can prevail entirely”, “neither Ukraine nor Russia, because the effects of the mobilization are not as great as expected and itself has capacity limits”.
>
> Emmanuel Macron also believes that “all options other than Vladimir Putin within the current system” “seem worse” to him than the Russian president, in an allusion to such hardliners as the head of the Russian Security Council Nikolai Patrushev or the boss of the paramilitary group Wagner Evgeny Prigozhin.
>
> “Do we really think that a democratic solution will emerge from the Russian civil society there after these years of hardening and in the middle of the conflict? I sincerely hope so, but I don’t really believe it,” he warned.
The same applies to any country possessing nuclear weapons
No such thing as a “gentle” defeat.
[deleted]
Emmanuel Macron is an idiot then. Russia always was a problem for this part of Europe and must finally be taught a lesson of what happens when they invade other countries
> “I do not think, as some people do, that Russia must be defeated completely, attacking it on its soil.
Well, yeah, that was never on the table. RUS are a nuclear state, however incompetent they may be. For this reason alone nobody is going to support the invasion of RUS itself. Kick them out of Ukraine (including Crimea), fortify the borders and use the frozen RUS funds to rebuild – that is all logical. Then it’s a question of diplomacy to end the hostilities at that point. They’d have to do something remarkably stupid (like deploying nuclear weapons) to warrant a support for an invasion.
The EU is a thing because both France and Germany weren’t big enough to compete with China and India and the US without imperialism/colonialism, Russia can’t hope to become an independent player without looking at the bigger picture either. From that POV, it’s better to give them a way out that’s EU friendly than just “beating” them. (Not that they don’t have to be stopped, especially since they already made claims towards the Baltic states).
Why is he so stubborn on this topic ffs?
Can’t he for once talk about fully supporting Ukraine without “but”, “not a total defeat of Russia” etc etc?
Is he that desperate for a future “return to normal relations” with Russia? Start treating them like a big North Korea, zero relations with the West to be the new status quo…
I just don’t see the Russian government saying.. OK.. We lost. We will stop the war now. It will be years of fighting and some kind of iron curtain situation for more years to come. Or.. things become even worse. I struggle to think of another outcome.
We just want Russia to go home and stop being such arseholes.
I like how some Russian propagandists like to pretend that the evil West wants Russian collapse despite the same evil West pumping tens of billions of dollars into Russia to prevent its collapse after the break up of the Soviet Union.
He’s such a turd.
The breakup of Russia should not be an explicit goal, but if the liberation of Ukraine makes Russia implode then so be it.
Putins honor and wellbeing should not be our concern.
Apart from the absurd strawman argument that “we must not physically invade Russia”, this is all very much in line with French foreign policy history. France has a tendency in history to passively support Russian/Moscovian interests, for one reason or another. This is no surprise that the tendency will continue even when France has overtly sided with Ukraine.
If we not stop this ruSSian nightmare once and for all – the problem will arise again in 10 to 20 years with more horrible outcome. The same like with Germany after WW II. With one difference: ruSSians are different breed culturally from the rest of the Europe. More savage, more violent.
RuSSia as we know it must be “diffused”. For the future of our children we must stand up and finish this.
Point being Russia will crush itself if Ukraine is defended. So he’s basically asking for Ukraine to do not completely defend itself. This way of thinking is incredibly dangerous.
In any case here is the correct description of what is really motivating the belligerents in this proxy war:
Physically, the country or at least its territory will always be there.
There really isn’t much difference between France/Macron’s position and countries/people taking the ‘crush’ position.
The only difference is that France wants to be a relevant partner for all parties involved after the fighting has ended. If you publicly take a ‘crush’ position now, you become irrelevant for post war talks.
Russia has already been defeated. They are just going through the motions at this point. The only thing that might save them is if the west loses its nerve.
Emmanuel Macron wants to win a war without fighting it, without offending the enemy, and without consequences for its economy. When did our politics become so weak, narrow minded and shortsighted? This is hopeless
That’s because Germany and France want to do business with Russia. If they could support Ukraine and continue business as usual with Russia, they would.
Russia stopping the war, leaving all Ukraine and paying reparations, ok
Russia losing the war, driven out of Ukraine and sentenced for war crimes, also ok
Russia losing the war and fragmenting into smaller countries like the collapse of the Soviet Union, also ok
Russia must be crushed to the point where the autocracy falls otherwise we will be doing this again in 5 or 10 years.
Russian society must be changed otherwise it will become further revanchist
I like Russia so much that i want to see 20 of them
Westerners need to stop being afraid of the collapse of Russia because guess what: it does not really depend on you. Sorry to be bearer of bad news but other parties also have agency.
People need to come to terms with the idea that the possibility of Russia collapsing is a very real one and it becomes increasingly probable as time passes.
Look what’s happening inside Russia: you have competing factions that are amassing more and more military power and a Tsar that is gradually losing power. There are no successors to the Tsar’s throne. What happens when the Tsar’s power collapses? (could be defeat, could be assassination, could be natural death). Are all those competing, armed powers gonna sing kumbaya and hold hands while they democratically elect a new Tsar and give him all the power? No, of course not. They are already shittalking each other and definitely not getting along.
What Russian ought to really hope for is that the incoming war of succession is restricted to the active members of said groups and it doesn’t degrade into a civil war.
The only situation in which there’s no internal strife inside Russia is one in which it wins and partially occupies even more Ukrainian territory, only to come later and occupy the rest.
Otherwise get used to it, a Russian collapse is more and more likely as time passes.
We need to remember what happened after WW1, although the situation is different the consequences can be the same. Russia is not only putler but another 140mil people.
Idiot. Russia has always been imperialistic, it’ll repeat the whole situation if given the chance.
30 comments
> **[War in Ukraine: Emmanuel Macron wants “the defeat” of Russia, but without “crushing” it](https://www.lefigaro.fr/international/guerre-en-ukraine-emmanuel-macron-veut-la-defaite-de-la-russie-mais-sans-l-ecraser-20230218)**
>
> The President of the Republic confided in Le Figaro, the Journal du dimanche and France Inter in the plane that brought him back from the Munich Security Conference.
>
> In the plane that brought him back from the Munich Security Conference, Emmanuel Macron confided in Le Figaro, the Journal du dimanche and France Inter. He said he wanted “the defeat” of Moscow in the face of Ukraine, while warning those who want “above all crush Russia”, which will “never” be the “position of France”.
>
> “I want the defeat of Russia in Ukraine and I want Ukraine to be able to defend its position, but I am convinced that in the end it will not conclude militarily,” the French head of state told us. “I do not think, as some people do, that Russia must be defeated completely, attacking it on its soil. These observers want above all to crush Russia. This has never been the position of France and it will never be,” he added.
>
> **Encourage negotiations**
>
> These observers seem in his mind to be those who, especially in Eastern Europe, are more up to the mark and had sharply criticized in May 2022 his words that it should not “humiliate” Russia. In this interview conducted Friday evening on the plane returning from Germany, where he attended the annual Munich conference on security, the president reaffirms his desire to promote a negotiated outcome.
>
> In his speech in the Bavarian city, he had already estimated that Russia had to “fail” in Ukraine, but some observers had criticized him for not having gone so far as to mention a necessary “defeat” of Moscow. He had also explained that it was necessary to “intensify” support for Kiev in order to move towards “credible negotiations”.
>
> **Putin, the best solution in the current Russian system?**
>
> “What is needed today is for Ukraine to carry out a military offensive that disrupts the Russian front in order to trigger a return to negotiations,” he insisted to Le Figaro, JDD and France Inter. According to him, “neither side can prevail entirely”, “neither Ukraine nor Russia, because the effects of the mobilization are not as great as expected and itself has capacity limits”.
>
> Emmanuel Macron also believes that “all options other than Vladimir Putin within the current system” “seem worse” to him than the Russian president, in an allusion to such hardliners as the head of the Russian Security Council Nikolai Patrushev or the boss of the paramilitary group Wagner Evgeny Prigozhin.
>
> “Do we really think that a democratic solution will emerge from the Russian civil society there after these years of hardening and in the middle of the conflict? I sincerely hope so, but I don’t really believe it,” he warned.
Translated with http://www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
The same applies to any country possessing nuclear weapons
No such thing as a “gentle” defeat.
[deleted]
Emmanuel Macron is an idiot then. Russia always was a problem for this part of Europe and must finally be taught a lesson of what happens when they invade other countries
> “I do not think, as some people do, that Russia must be defeated completely, attacking it on its soil.
Well, yeah, that was never on the table. RUS are a nuclear state, however incompetent they may be. For this reason alone nobody is going to support the invasion of RUS itself. Kick them out of Ukraine (including Crimea), fortify the borders and use the frozen RUS funds to rebuild – that is all logical. Then it’s a question of diplomacy to end the hostilities at that point. They’d have to do something remarkably stupid (like deploying nuclear weapons) to warrant a support for an invasion.
The EU is a thing because both France and Germany weren’t big enough to compete with China and India and the US without imperialism/colonialism, Russia can’t hope to become an independent player without looking at the bigger picture either. From that POV, it’s better to give them a way out that’s EU friendly than just “beating” them. (Not that they don’t have to be stopped, especially since they already made claims towards the Baltic states).
Why is he so stubborn on this topic ffs?
Can’t he for once talk about fully supporting Ukraine without “but”, “not a total defeat of Russia” etc etc?
Is he that desperate for a future “return to normal relations” with Russia? Start treating them like a big North Korea, zero relations with the West to be the new status quo…
I just don’t see the Russian government saying.. OK.. We lost. We will stop the war now. It will be years of fighting and some kind of iron curtain situation for more years to come. Or.. things become even worse. I struggle to think of another outcome.
We just want Russia to go home and stop being such arseholes.
I like how some Russian propagandists like to pretend that the evil West wants Russian collapse despite the same evil West pumping tens of billions of dollars into Russia to prevent its collapse after the break up of the Soviet Union.
He’s such a turd.
The breakup of Russia should not be an explicit goal, but if the liberation of Ukraine makes Russia implode then so be it.
Putins honor and wellbeing should not be our concern.
Apart from the absurd strawman argument that “we must not physically invade Russia”, this is all very much in line with French foreign policy history. France has a tendency in history to passively support Russian/Moscovian interests, for one reason or another. This is no surprise that the tendency will continue even when France has overtly sided with Ukraine.
If we not stop this ruSSian nightmare once and for all – the problem will arise again in 10 to 20 years with more horrible outcome. The same like with Germany after WW II. With one difference: ruSSians are different breed culturally from the rest of the Europe. More savage, more violent.
RuSSia as we know it must be “diffused”. For the future of our children we must stand up and finish this.
Point being Russia will crush itself if Ukraine is defended. So he’s basically asking for Ukraine to do not completely defend itself. This way of thinking is incredibly dangerous.
In any case here is the correct description of what is really motivating the belligerents in this proxy war:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TzgPJeYZaOU
I think this gentleman is retarded.
No Russia needs to be crushed
Wussy words
Physically, the country or at least its territory will always be there.
There really isn’t much difference between France/Macron’s position and countries/people taking the ‘crush’ position.
The only difference is that France wants to be a relevant partner for all parties involved after the fighting has ended. If you publicly take a ‘crush’ position now, you become irrelevant for post war talks.
Russia has already been defeated. They are just going through the motions at this point. The only thing that might save them is if the west loses its nerve.
Emmanuel Macron wants to win a war without fighting it, without offending the enemy, and without consequences for its economy. When did our politics become so weak, narrow minded and shortsighted? This is hopeless
That’s because Germany and France want to do business with Russia. If they could support Ukraine and continue business as usual with Russia, they would.
Russia stopping the war, leaving all Ukraine and paying reparations, ok
Russia losing the war, driven out of Ukraine and sentenced for war crimes, also ok
Russia losing the war and fragmenting into smaller countries like the collapse of the Soviet Union, also ok
Russia must be crushed to the point where the autocracy falls otherwise we will be doing this again in 5 or 10 years.
Russian society must be changed otherwise it will become further revanchist
I like Russia so much that i want to see 20 of them
Westerners need to stop being afraid of the collapse of Russia because guess what: it does not really depend on you. Sorry to be bearer of bad news but other parties also have agency.
People need to come to terms with the idea that the possibility of Russia collapsing is a very real one and it becomes increasingly probable as time passes.
Look what’s happening inside Russia: you have competing factions that are amassing more and more military power and a Tsar that is gradually losing power. There are no successors to the Tsar’s throne. What happens when the Tsar’s power collapses? (could be defeat, could be assassination, could be natural death). Are all those competing, armed powers gonna sing kumbaya and hold hands while they democratically elect a new Tsar and give him all the power? No, of course not. They are already shittalking each other and definitely not getting along.
What Russian ought to really hope for is that the incoming war of succession is restricted to the active members of said groups and it doesn’t degrade into a civil war.
The only situation in which there’s no internal strife inside Russia is one in which it wins and partially occupies even more Ukrainian territory, only to come later and occupy the rest.
Otherwise get used to it, a Russian collapse is more and more likely as time passes.
We need to remember what happened after WW1, although the situation is different the consequences can be the same. Russia is not only putler but another 140mil people.
Idiot. Russia has always been imperialistic, it’ll repeat the whole situation if given the chance.