Argumentum ad ignorantiam. He never heard negative epithets derived from other descriptors? How about “franca”, “ruski mir”, “amerykanscy naukowcy”, “ocyganic”, “zydzic”, etc.? This guy is engaging in what is termed “euphemism treadmill”. Replacing existing words with alternative due to negative connotations associated with the original ones. Problem is, the negative associations will quickly reappear with the new term. Instead of “sto lat za Murzynami”, we will have “sto lat za czarnymi” – that’s it! Replacing words will not erase the historical backwardness of sub-Saharan Africa – that’s magical thinking.
I mean this shouldn’t be a problem, right? If the Black Polish community feels offended by that word and simply asks to use term Black, we should just use that term. Words come and go, trends change, dying on a hill of an outdated word is just silly.
What the fuck is “ludzki towar – murzyn”? Is this Rej reference?
Are we now cancelling the word because it’s been once used unfavourably?
I mean WTF?
Czyli po polskiemu mówić per Czarnuch a nie per Murzyn ?
Murzyn, murzyn, murzyn, murzyn , murzyn, I will use this word whenever I please, I don’t care.
Przypomina mi to moją ankietę którą zdjeli z r/Polska za ”’szerzenie mowy nienawiści”
Not with this racial bs here -.- I am tired of it in the West, I don’t want it here. At least start with some stats of how many black and white people who live in Poland agree that “Murzyn” is offensive, because I feel like 99% of all inhabitants of Poland would not give a fuck
Ah yes. Once again we are transplanting ‘Murican problems onto Polish soil.
Murzyn zawsze znajdzie problem gdzie go nie ma
Sto lat za Rosjanami w sumie mi się podoba
Plot twist is that North Africa traded Slavs, since it was like slaver trading center (and still is). Oh wait, there is word Slav just like slaves! What we gonna do?
“100 lat za Murzynami” – I always thought it was related to Americans from USA 😉 I thought it literally means that we lag with some tech like a century behind a developed country like USA.
I’m dead serious. As a person growing up in a communist Poland the only place I saw black people was TV, and they were mostly Americans. So in my mind as a kid – a black person was most likely an American from USA.
BTW, should we, Poles, be offended with a world “Slav” that sounds similar to “slave”? I know, it’s probably not the real root of the word. But then – “Pole” seems offensive too, it means just a “pole”. A vertical construction element 😉
I like the terms like Blacks and Whites. It’s just tidy. Simple. Yet some people still find it offensive.
So I think we should relax. Negative connotations depend on the person using it and their intentions.
It’s also important to address slavery here. Now we’re all slaves. Many of us, no matter where do we come from – work for almost no compensation. Our freedoms are significantly limited, so… It’s a kind of modern, non-discriminative slavery.
When I read about black people complaints, the ones living in USA, I see the way they are discriminated is exactly how working class, poor people are discriminated everywhere. Or – some ethnic minorities. It doesn’t matter which one is it, if you’re not middle class native – you’re not treated equally everywhere.
Dobra, bede go nazywac niger w takim razie
Pierdolenie o Chopinie
If Murzyn is pejorative because of historical reasons, let’s also cancel the word *”Slavic”* ! /s
If you look at the history of the word “slave” in English it was created to describe people from east/central Europe that were sold in the Roman empire.
But now the world slavic is something many people take pride in and don’t get offended, while the origins are quite literally as close to human merchandise as it gets
Tl.dr Shut up, we are the original slaves and are not offended by it.
There are more serious problems in Poland rn
Please stop projecting US social issues onto the rest of the world.
What kind of logic gymnastics is this? I don’t even have a problem with considering murzyn racist if there’s good argument for it but none of those are.
Assuming “murzyn” originated from “Maurs” we need to get rid of “murzyn” because Maurs no longer exist? This is insane. The list of words that originate from things that don’t exist today would be tremendous. Are we supposed to find a new word for “bielizna” because underwear can have different colors now? Are we getting rid of “sklep” because there no longer are cellars where we keep all the food and drinks? “Slav” gotta go too right? Ridiculous. What matters is what is the word referring now.
The word in language A is racist because in language B it translates to a different word with different etymology with racist connotations? What? So if I look for “slavic” or “british” in translation and in one of the languages the translated word has racist etymology do we cancel those words in English too? What kind of logic is this? If “negro” means slave and its bad, someone message the government of “Montenegro” right now and demand a change
If “murzyn” meant “black slave” or just “slave” in Polish then go ahead and get rid of it. Has it?
Oficjalnie dostaliśmy nword passa
Literally noone ever used word “murzyn” as slur in my presence, maybe as a joke where black people actually had more luck than some nationalities including Poles, tho all my friends are white so I guess by default they are racist lol.
Poland have no colonial and slavery “tradition” and while Jews might have some rights to complain about old times casual antisemitism black people were just curious looking people. At times when US still treated them as lower class citizen Poles treated them as equal.
If some black person would ask me to not use term “murzyn” while refering to them I’d do this as culture ask, but until now I had only one longer ancounter with Polish speaking black person and she didn’t mind at all term “murzynka” (tho of course it’s anecdotal example tho it’s difficult to find other with community smaller than 1% of Polish population).
Polish black community have problem with that word? Ok, let’s talk, historical bad connotations aren’t required for that, but that monologue from your screenshot is mix of false facts and loud exceptions put in passive agressive manner which by default scream “asspain” not “begining of discussion over some problematic topic”. But maybe I expect too much from people from internet…
Dobra nie zesraj się, słowo murzyn nie ciągnie za sobą żadnych negatywnych powiązań. Osoby, które usilnie próbują mu je przyczepić powinny zastanowić się nad lepszą formą spędzania wolnego czasu, bo najwyraźniej mają go za dużo.
Should we also stop calling Germans “Niemcy” as it comes from world “mutes” and IMO is (or should be) more problematic than calling someone with name which was derived from name of tribe that don’t exist anymore.
Isn’t it like words can have different meanings/power in specific context? For example infamous now jokes “Women ☕” mock women, right? So we need to stop using it? I can’t understand that.
Also what it has to do with meaning of word centuries ago? Again, “woman”, or in this case “kobieta”, is good example. Because 500 years ago it was pejorative, should we not use it, even if it changed meaning?
And obviously, I don’t have problem with calling someone “czarny” or whatever they want to be called, if they don’t like “murzyn”. Just arguments in this post are out of touch.
In my opinion. One barrier is the confronting attitude of the people who want the change. Let’s imagine a friend who changed his name tells you this name was problematic for him in the past and asks you to use another. Of course you do it. You are friends. But if your friend asks this of you and accusses you of being the problem, you think: how could I know before that the name was problematic for him?
Poles are not Americans, we don’t have a moral debt in that aspect, but we will gladly help others. Another barrier is the defensive attitude of Poles. We don’t want to be tagged as having made the mistake and being forced to change because we think we haven’t made the mistake. And we are right.
But taking into account that it’s easier to spread hate than love. Let’s help others and let’s think about making our language serving well all the Poles regardles of the skin colour and making it more inclusive.
I think we should stop using this word
Może jeszcze zabrońcie mi używać zwrotu “ciemno jak w dupie u murzyna”, co?
Ot problemy pierwszego świata. Proponuję zająć się czymś pożytecznym, a nie pierdołami.
This may be a controversial opinion, but “Most Black people who speak Polish don’t like being called that”* is an argument against using the word, but “This word is bad because it existed 200 years ago” is just dumb.
*I don’t know if this is actually the case.
The word “Murzyn” is an old version of a word “Maur”, in the same way as “Tatarzyn” comes from “Tatar” (“Złapał kozak Tatarzyna a Tatarzyn za łeb go trzyma”).
And yes, Maurowie (Moors) do actually exist in Maghreb until this day.
So yes, Poles didn’t trade Black people like the west of Europe, Poles were traded as slav(e)s and this should be an argument good enough to stop this “murzyn” bullshit.
Argumenty do dupy.
– nigdy się nie spotkałam ze słowem “murzyn” użytym w kontekście żywego towaru, albo wzmianki o tym, że to słowo miało kiedyś takie znaczenie. Przydałby się jakiś artykuł, jakiś dowód.
Murzynem można nazwać osobę ciężko pracującą za marne pieniądze ale to nie dlatego, że jest kojarzone z niewolnictwem tylko imigrantami lub Makumbą.
– argumenty “za murzynem” to głównie: “murzyn jest neutralnym słowem”. Znowu by się przydał jakiś dowód na to, że ludzie uważają to za piękne staropolskie słowo.
– Nègres to nie murzyn. Już pomijając etymologię te słowa mają kompletnie inny wydźwięk. Wiem, że to anegdota chuja warta ale moja polsko francuska rodzina nie traktuje “murzyna” i “Nègresa” w ten sam sposób. Jedno to poprostu “czarny człowiek” drugie to obelga, francuski n-word, “czarny niewolnik”.
– robić coś raz na ruski rok – zbyt rzadko. Poza tym, “murzyn” w podanych przykładach jest tylko określeniem na osobę czarnoskórą, użycie “czarni” miałoby ten sam wydźwięk. Przytaczanie obraźliwych formułek by udowodnić, że słowo jest obraźliwe tylko udowadnia, że samo w sobie jest neutralne.
Czemu mamy usuwać słowa zamiast poprostu ogarnąć, że ich wydźwięk zależy od kontekstu? Powiedzenie “kurwa” z automatu nie obraża prostytutek. Człowieka można obrazić nazywając go Rosjaninem, Niemcem, czarnym, białym, Polakiem, psem, suką, sierotą etc. Może przestańmy się wogóle odzywać?
Jeśli ktoś nie chce być nazywany murzynem to spoko, ale jestem przeciwna skreślaniu słów bo powiedzenie “murzyn” nie czyni z nikogo rasisty. W Ameryce pobicie kogoś za użycie n-worda, bojkot, “kancelowanie” jest akceptowalne, nie możemy dopuścić do czegoś takiego na naszym polskim podwórku. Nie róbmy z siebie debili..
Ja rozumiem ze trzeba bylo to glosno powiedzieć ale starsze pokolenia nawet nie do konca rozumieją że w tym okresleniu jest cos złego. Młode pokolenia tak nie mówią i od bardzo dawna nie slyszałem w ustach młodych ludzi.
Czekajcie jak się dowieczą że jest jeszcze ciasto “czarnuszek”…
Girl in a pic is more like Mulatka so why would anyone call her murzyn?!
ach gówno tutaj my idziemy znowu
Może tylko ja tak mam, ale wydaje mi się, że określenie murzyn jest zdecydowanie mniej pejoratywne niż powiedzenie na kogoś czarny/czarnuch. Nie wydaje mi się żeby mówienie o kimś z azji, że jest żółty mu pasowało.
Murzyn has bad reputation only when someone stupidly translate it to n*gger while it basically means black person.
Staropolskie murzyn wzieło się od murzyć czyli czarnić i nie jest to obraźliwe sformułowanie
As a white person I don’t have a preference. I will call dark skinned people as they prefer. The issue is that I don’t think they will ever reach the consensus. The language evolves and every few years there will be a new slang that will have to be banned…
Also the average commenter here does not consider this word to be racist so that undermines this whole conversation.
39 comments
Argumentum ad ignorantiam. He never heard negative epithets derived from other descriptors? How about “franca”, “ruski mir”, “amerykanscy naukowcy”, “ocyganic”, “zydzic”, etc.? This guy is engaging in what is termed “euphemism treadmill”. Replacing existing words with alternative due to negative connotations associated with the original ones. Problem is, the negative associations will quickly reappear with the new term. Instead of “sto lat za Murzynami”, we will have “sto lat za czarnymi” – that’s it! Replacing words will not erase the historical backwardness of sub-Saharan Africa – that’s magical thinking.
I mean this shouldn’t be a problem, right? If the Black Polish community feels offended by that word and simply asks to use term Black, we should just use that term. Words come and go, trends change, dying on a hill of an outdated word is just silly.
What the fuck is “ludzki towar – murzyn”? Is this Rej reference?
Are we now cancelling the word because it’s been once used unfavourably?
I mean WTF?
Czyli po polskiemu mówić per Czarnuch a nie per Murzyn ?
Murzyn, murzyn, murzyn, murzyn , murzyn, I will use this word whenever I please, I don’t care.
Przypomina mi to moją ankietę którą zdjeli z r/Polska za ”’szerzenie mowy nienawiści”
Not with this racial bs here -.- I am tired of it in the West, I don’t want it here. At least start with some stats of how many black and white people who live in Poland agree that “Murzyn” is offensive, because I feel like 99% of all inhabitants of Poland would not give a fuck
Ah yes. Once again we are transplanting ‘Murican problems onto Polish soil.
Murzyn zawsze znajdzie problem gdzie go nie ma
Sto lat za Rosjanami w sumie mi się podoba
Plot twist is that North Africa traded Slavs, since it was like slaver trading center (and still is). Oh wait, there is word Slav just like slaves! What we gonna do?
“100 lat za Murzynami” – I always thought it was related to Americans from USA 😉 I thought it literally means that we lag with some tech like a century behind a developed country like USA.
I’m dead serious. As a person growing up in a communist Poland the only place I saw black people was TV, and they were mostly Americans. So in my mind as a kid – a black person was most likely an American from USA.
BTW, should we, Poles, be offended with a world “Slav” that sounds similar to “slave”? I know, it’s probably not the real root of the word. But then – “Pole” seems offensive too, it means just a “pole”. A vertical construction element 😉
I like the terms like Blacks and Whites. It’s just tidy. Simple. Yet some people still find it offensive.
So I think we should relax. Negative connotations depend on the person using it and their intentions.
It’s also important to address slavery here. Now we’re all slaves. Many of us, no matter where do we come from – work for almost no compensation. Our freedoms are significantly limited, so… It’s a kind of modern, non-discriminative slavery.
When I read about black people complaints, the ones living in USA, I see the way they are discriminated is exactly how working class, poor people are discriminated everywhere. Or – some ethnic minorities. It doesn’t matter which one is it, if you’re not middle class native – you’re not treated equally everywhere.
Dobra, bede go nazywac niger w takim razie
Pierdolenie o Chopinie
If Murzyn is pejorative because of historical reasons, let’s also cancel the word *”Slavic”* ! /s
If you look at the history of the word “slave” in English it was created to describe people from east/central Europe that were sold in the Roman empire.
But now the world slavic is something many people take pride in and don’t get offended, while the origins are quite literally as close to human merchandise as it gets
Tl.dr Shut up, we are the original slaves and are not offended by it.
There are more serious problems in Poland rn
Please stop projecting US social issues onto the rest of the world.
What kind of logic gymnastics is this? I don’t even have a problem with considering murzyn racist if there’s good argument for it but none of those are.
Assuming “murzyn” originated from “Maurs” we need to get rid of “murzyn” because Maurs no longer exist? This is insane. The list of words that originate from things that don’t exist today would be tremendous. Are we supposed to find a new word for “bielizna” because underwear can have different colors now? Are we getting rid of “sklep” because there no longer are cellars where we keep all the food and drinks? “Slav” gotta go too right? Ridiculous. What matters is what is the word referring now.
The word in language A is racist because in language B it translates to a different word with different etymology with racist connotations? What? So if I look for “slavic” or “british” in translation and in one of the languages the translated word has racist etymology do we cancel those words in English too? What kind of logic is this? If “negro” means slave and its bad, someone message the government of “Montenegro” right now and demand a change
If “murzyn” meant “black slave” or just “slave” in Polish then go ahead and get rid of it. Has it?
Oficjalnie dostaliśmy nword passa
Literally noone ever used word “murzyn” as slur in my presence, maybe as a joke where black people actually had more luck than some nationalities including Poles, tho all my friends are white so I guess by default they are racist lol.
Poland have no colonial and slavery “tradition” and while Jews might have some rights to complain about old times casual antisemitism black people were just curious looking people. At times when US still treated them as lower class citizen Poles treated them as equal.
If some black person would ask me to not use term “murzyn” while refering to them I’d do this as culture ask, but until now I had only one longer ancounter with Polish speaking black person and she didn’t mind at all term “murzynka” (tho of course it’s anecdotal example tho it’s difficult to find other with community smaller than 1% of Polish population).
Polish black community have problem with that word? Ok, let’s talk, historical bad connotations aren’t required for that, but that monologue from your screenshot is mix of false facts and loud exceptions put in passive agressive manner which by default scream “asspain” not “begining of discussion over some problematic topic”. But maybe I expect too much from people from internet…
Dobra nie zesraj się, słowo murzyn nie ciągnie za sobą żadnych negatywnych powiązań. Osoby, które usilnie próbują mu je przyczepić powinny zastanowić się nad lepszą formą spędzania wolnego czasu, bo najwyraźniej mają go za dużo.
Should we also stop calling Germans “Niemcy” as it comes from world “mutes” and IMO is (or should be) more problematic than calling someone with name which was derived from name of tribe that don’t exist anymore.
Isn’t it like words can have different meanings/power in specific context? For example infamous now jokes “Women ☕” mock women, right? So we need to stop using it? I can’t understand that.
Also what it has to do with meaning of word centuries ago? Again, “woman”, or in this case “kobieta”, is good example. Because 500 years ago it was pejorative, should we not use it, even if it changed meaning?
And obviously, I don’t have problem with calling someone “czarny” or whatever they want to be called, if they don’t like “murzyn”. Just arguments in this post are out of touch.
In my opinion. One barrier is the confronting attitude of the people who want the change. Let’s imagine a friend who changed his name tells you this name was problematic for him in the past and asks you to use another. Of course you do it. You are friends. But if your friend asks this of you and accusses you of being the problem, you think: how could I know before that the name was problematic for him?
Poles are not Americans, we don’t have a moral debt in that aspect, but we will gladly help others. Another barrier is the defensive attitude of Poles. We don’t want to be tagged as having made the mistake and being forced to change because we think we haven’t made the mistake. And we are right.
But taking into account that it’s easier to spread hate than love. Let’s help others and let’s think about making our language serving well all the Poles regardles of the skin colour and making it more inclusive.
I think we should stop using this word
Może jeszcze zabrońcie mi używać zwrotu “ciemno jak w dupie u murzyna”, co?
Ale po polsku Niger to rzeka (i państwo). Z kolei negr: [(pogardliwie o Murzynie)](https://sjp.pwn.pl/so/negr;4470960.html)
Ot problemy pierwszego świata. Proponuję zająć się czymś pożytecznym, a nie pierdołami.
This may be a controversial opinion, but “Most Black people who speak Polish don’t like being called that”* is an argument against using the word, but “This word is bad because it existed 200 years ago” is just dumb.
*I don’t know if this is actually the case.
The word “Murzyn” is an old version of a word “Maur”, in the same way as “Tatarzyn” comes from “Tatar” (“Złapał kozak Tatarzyna a Tatarzyn za łeb go trzyma”).
And yes, Maurowie (Moors) do actually exist in Maghreb until this day.
So yes, Poles didn’t trade Black people like the west of Europe, Poles were traded as slav(e)s and this should be an argument good enough to stop this “murzyn” bullshit.
Argumenty do dupy.
– nigdy się nie spotkałam ze słowem “murzyn” użytym w kontekście żywego towaru, albo wzmianki o tym, że to słowo miało kiedyś takie znaczenie. Przydałby się jakiś artykuł, jakiś dowód.
Murzynem można nazwać osobę ciężko pracującą za marne pieniądze ale to nie dlatego, że jest kojarzone z niewolnictwem tylko imigrantami lub Makumbą.
– argumenty “za murzynem” to głównie: “murzyn jest neutralnym słowem”. Znowu by się przydał jakiś dowód na to, że ludzie uważają to za piękne staropolskie słowo.
– Nègres to nie murzyn. Już pomijając etymologię te słowa mają kompletnie inny wydźwięk. Wiem, że to anegdota chuja warta ale moja polsko francuska rodzina nie traktuje “murzyna” i “Nègresa” w ten sam sposób. Jedno to poprostu “czarny człowiek” drugie to obelga, francuski n-word, “czarny niewolnik”.
– robić coś raz na ruski rok – zbyt rzadko. Poza tym, “murzyn” w podanych przykładach jest tylko określeniem na osobę czarnoskórą, użycie “czarni” miałoby ten sam wydźwięk. Przytaczanie obraźliwych formułek by udowodnić, że słowo jest obraźliwe tylko udowadnia, że samo w sobie jest neutralne.
Czemu mamy usuwać słowa zamiast poprostu ogarnąć, że ich wydźwięk zależy od kontekstu? Powiedzenie “kurwa” z automatu nie obraża prostytutek. Człowieka można obrazić nazywając go Rosjaninem, Niemcem, czarnym, białym, Polakiem, psem, suką, sierotą etc. Może przestańmy się wogóle odzywać?
Jeśli ktoś nie chce być nazywany murzynem to spoko, ale jestem przeciwna skreślaniu słów bo powiedzenie “murzyn” nie czyni z nikogo rasisty. W Ameryce pobicie kogoś za użycie n-worda, bojkot, “kancelowanie” jest akceptowalne, nie możemy dopuścić do czegoś takiego na naszym polskim podwórku. Nie róbmy z siebie debili..
Ja rozumiem ze trzeba bylo to glosno powiedzieć ale starsze pokolenia nawet nie do konca rozumieją że w tym okresleniu jest cos złego. Młode pokolenia tak nie mówią i od bardzo dawna nie slyszałem w ustach młodych ludzi.
Czekajcie jak się dowieczą że jest jeszcze ciasto “czarnuszek”…
Girl in a pic is more like Mulatka so why would anyone call her murzyn?!
ach gówno tutaj my idziemy znowu
Może tylko ja tak mam, ale wydaje mi się, że określenie murzyn jest zdecydowanie mniej pejoratywne niż powiedzenie na kogoś czarny/czarnuch. Nie wydaje mi się żeby mówienie o kimś z azji, że jest żółty mu pasowało.
Murzyn has bad reputation only when someone stupidly translate it to n*gger while it basically means black person.
Staropolskie murzyn wzieło się od murzyć czyli czarnić i nie jest to obraźliwe sformułowanie
As a white person I don’t have a preference. I will call dark skinned people as they prefer. The issue is that I don’t think they will ever reach the consensus. The language evolves and every few years there will be a new slang that will have to be banned…
Also the average commenter here does not consider this word to be racist so that undermines this whole conversation.
To co lepiej nazwać czarnuchem?