So you want companies to hire people who cannot communicate with any of their coworkers about anything?
Did you read the text? Its not about perfect he didnt speak dutch, while nobody at where he would have to work speaks english.
Yeah kinda a mayor issue.
Dutch is often very important for safety reasons.
Interim should have figured out if that was necessary first, not suprised considering interimbureaus only try to perform the bare minimum, go cry me a river.
That is terrible. Why would you put somebody through all that only to realise that he doesn’t fit because he can’t speak a language, did you not even figure it out at the interview? It’s devastating having to miss out on job opportunities after the entire process. I feel really bad for him. This job could mean so many things for him and his family.
If farmers who only speak the roughest West Vlaams can explain to Eastern European seasonal workers what to do, I’m sure your average factory or warehouse manager can figure it out as well.
It is particularly annoying that Belgium is so conservative on this because on the other hand you get so many people boasting how great Belgians are at speaking different languages.
It has been identified time and again that Belgium has serious issues with getting immigrants employed. But it seems a lot of companies just don’t want to make the effort, all the while complaining how they can’t find decent staff these days.
I do not see what is wrong with the attitude of the lady. The knowledge of Flemish is a sensitive topic in the North of Belgium.
There’s a difference between ‘PeRfEcT dUtCh’ and no Dutch at all…
They should have said it was a requirement to get the job, but even then you’re not sure, Inknow of some interim-kantoren who sent candidates who didn’t meet requirements at all. A hotel receptionist who was needed to speak dutch, french and english? They sent someone who only speaks french… and more stuff like that.
If the safety and security briefings and documentation are all in dutch, it would indeed be a liability hiring someone that does not understand that. If somebody is not a client-facing position, limited knowledge needs to be sufficient. There are language tests and levels available, so the requirement should be a clearly stated level (B1, C2,…) and the certificate from a recognized language institute should be sufficient to make this a non-issue.
Yes, language is an important communication tool.
Yes, job advertisements should have this information included with sufficient specificity.
No, the subjective judgement of the interviewer about the language skills are not sufficient to deny someone employment.
Even my 75 year old parents get by with very broken English.
And explain to me how all the farmers work with polish people, with no shared language whatsoever. If the need is there, we make it work
I don’t think it’s ridiculous to ask somebody to speak Dutch in Belgium. I do think it’s ridiculous to have somebody to an entire interview and test and only afterwards let them know they need to know Dutch.
I’m Greek and I moved to Belgium in 2014. It seriously is impossible to find a job when you don’t know the language. People here really won’t bother with English, the times I’ve had people saying to me “you’re in Belgium, speak Dutch” as if I enjoyed being rejected because of the language barrier. It’s possible for English speaking people to get jobs in big cities like Antwerp or Gent, but anywhere else, it’s rough… years later, I’ve learned the language and am working as a waitress and even now, people tend to comment on my accent and I am still rejected for jobs more than my friends because my dutch has a “thick accent”. It’s frustrating. All I can say to your friend is to look for jobs in big cities where a lot of international students come to study, or learn the basics (Dutch) for the job he’s interested in. Good luck! It’s tough out there!
It’s a classic HR trick. It’s not only with language, i’ve applied for a entry leven job once, Interview was flawless. Everyone was stoked, after a few days i get a call they are looking for someone with possible leadership skills. For an entry level job…
Best part, i even have experience as a teammanager. Classic HR f’ing you over.
From my personal experience, if someone states that they 100% like you and are going to send you papers to sign, you will never hear from them.
To be honest: a friend of mine moved to Spain, and at every single job application he was told “You don’t speak Spanish? Sorry, we cannot employ you here”. And I think that’s normal. If/when you move to a different country, you learn the local language. Unless it’s for a temporary job in an international company that already uses English (or whatever) as main communication language.
Also: try using the phrase “please go get the *heftruck* and do this and that” to someone who doesn’t speak Dutch and doesn’t know what a “*heftruck*” is. Good luck.
Kinda intresting how everyone gives their opinions without knowing enough to do so.
Yes they should have communicated before the interview etc. they want him to speak dutch, 100%.
But you can’t know what exactly he has to do in that job so speaking dutch could be very importand. We just don’t know lol.
Imo it’s weird to focus on that last aspect when there is no info about it.
OK first of all i’d like to say that it’s bad that they made the guy do everything and told him they would call him.
BUT i don’t think it’s unreasonable to require someone to speak the language. i know all us internetdwellers know english… but i can take you to full towns where no one in the fucking building knows a word english.
I work as a Belgian consultant in the Netherlands and it is really strange. In Belgium everybody needs to know Dutch or else you’re fucked. In the Netherlands: Oh you speak English, come on and join the club.
Typical HR incompetence. I experienced that situation a few times actually, it’s demotivating and rude as hell for the candidate. For me it was not only about language but sometimes also because of wrong details in the job description.
The worst one was because I didn’t speak dutch for a job in Ixelles/Elsene but the job description didn’t mention it. Had to go there twice (2x400km), did good at the test but then at the interview I met the team I would have to work with and they all spoke dutch, barely english and no french at all. Or they didn’t want to maybe… I don’t know, is it common for someone working in Brussels area to be unable to speak both french and english?
One lesson I learned the hard way is to never trust anything a job interviewer says unless you’re signing a contract. So long as you have not signed anything you are an applicant and nothing has been promised, proven or verified.
I’ve been burned the hard way with a “oh you’re definitely getting the job, you’re an amazing applicant” to then go “yeah, but this and this and that” several times before.
Chances are there were multiple candidates for the same job and they went for someone who speaks dutch over someone who has no grasp of it. I’ve had many interviews in the past that went really well, but eventually went to someone else because of a seemingly irrelevant reason.
Just learn the language. Don’t expect people to cater for you and change the language on the workfloor. That’s not how the world works.
Honestly tho, Im a Belgian living in Finland (Helsinki) and almost all jobs require Finnish knowledge even if it is a very international company that has its main business abroad. And Finland is known for how serious they are about equality and stuff like that. It can be frustrating as hell, I know that. On the other hand I fully understand that they want you to know the Finnish/Swedish language even if you can communicate in English. To put it crudely: they didn’t ask us to move, we can’t expect them to change their ways because we don’t speak the local language. Considering how great life here in Finland is for example, I see learning the language as the least I can do in return. I’m not saying that the person here in this post isn’t doing effort, don’t get me wrong but it will take some time before looking for a job will become easier. It’s not just a Belgian thing like you seem to think, it is pretty common tbh.
I feel like needing to speak dutch isn’t the problem but that he had do the tests and interviews before telling him. They wasted his time.
People realize that if I went to america and didn’t speak English. I’d have the same problem. If I went to france and didn’t speak french I’d have the same problem. I get that it’s annoying to learn a new language but 11millions people here already speak dutch. So my opinion is when in Rome do as romans do.
Is it that strange that you learn the language if you want to stay in a certain country?
It is like this everywhere…
Larger companies have different standards depending on the supervisor. Either that or some interim cunt did a poor job matching his profile. Source: former interim cunt.
My wife was approached by the director of the school in which she was learning Flemish. They perfectly knew her proficiency level. She was sent twice to interviews at about 20km from that school. She met some (future) workmates, managers and mostly everyone in the organization agreed she could make it right and passed all the tests and questionnaires and so on .
Two days after the second meeting she got s call from the big boss telling her that they were already preparing her paperwork and that she was too get further instructions by an administrative person on the next day.
That person called my wife asking whether she could speak dialects too.
And no, she couldn’t.
Something that they knew from minute zero. Our even before, given the nature of that business.
This is only one of her related stories.
Fortunately she didn’t ever worked there and she’s already worked for a number of companies in which English, Spanish, Italian and even dutch (sorry, no dialects) was used.
This employer’s attitude is not an isolated case in my own experience, and destroys the self steem of the candidate. I cannot understand it but with what I call the ibm-syndrome: as a decision maker, i am not being the one who risks.
Language requirements are not stupid. Wasting his time by making him do all the tests is.
I once worked in a company where everyone was from different countries. No one spoke Dutch or English. The could only communicate 3 things with each other: chef (meaning the boss is coming), mimicking cutting your hand (meaning you need a knife) and rubbing your stomach (meaning it’s break time). We somehow made it work and till today it is the best work environment I’ve been in. It was funny how hard we we’re struggling to speak with each other.
YoUr LIngUiSTiC lAnDscAPe NeEdS tO aDaPt To mY pERsoNaL CaPAbILiTy!
I have seen also bad work termination because of language barier with big faults because not undestanding.you need to learn dutch and not rely on other languages. Its hard but its how it is.
oh no I must speak the language in the country where it is spoken
And I don’t even talk perfect Dutch, I was born here…
Wait they could communicate enough to do a great intake and make him do a flawless testdrive with the heftruck but all of a sudden they can’t communicate to have him do the job. That’s suspicious.
Recruiter here. I see alot of discrimination like that which is basically a nice way of a company saying “we don’t want immigrants”.
This is really not ok, especially for labour intensive jobs where communication is not part of your job.
I do have to state that you don’t have to underestimate the importance of communication in a day to day office job. Even if you’ve been learning Dutch for 4 years, it still does impact the workflow in one way or another.
The biggest problem is, companies mostly have the ‘luxury’ to be picky. If you have 2 profiles with the exact same experience, it makes sense a dutch team preferres a dutch native over a non native speaker. I think everyone in some way would prefer someone they can connect to more easily.
As someone who works in a factory near the french border, it kinda sucks working in a factory about 3km from your house where you are born and calling a technician to come and help you only to hear “j’ai pas compri, je suis francais”. And keep in mind this is the flemish backyard and not center of brussels. It’s a flemish factory in a flemish town where people speak exclusivly flemish in everyday life.
Having to speak another language in your hometown on the flemish *boerenbuiten* in order to get your work done because someone else wanted to come and work here but doesnt speak the language is frustrating yeah.
You wont hear me say they dont do their work good, they do, but isnt it a small effort to adapt to the language of the country you come to work in?
I’m surprised that said everybody else only speak dutch. In Belgium, young people often know at least two language, one often being english (and I think it’s even more common for dutch speaker since they have less thing translated in their language while french speaker have more because of France).
But yeah it’s sometimes harder to find a job in Belgium because in some place you need to speak 3 languages or they will favorise someone who speak more languages than you. (My dutch is very basic, my english much better but not perfect)
>ride with the heftruck
They were not wrong about not speaking English.
We speak Dutch here. What tf do you expect? They could be more straight forward, thats true but cmon.
Ok? I don’t see the issue with not hiring people that can’t speak the workplace’s language.
I feel like most people (at least now) can speak better english than french in flanders lol
Yes WhOlE BelGiUm iS BaD BeCaUsE Of ThAt
just learn the language . Especially if you use the system or want to stay. Try this nonsense in the southern part of Belgium
I’m ambivalent about this. On one hand, for some jobs, language fluency is important. In this case, since he’s have had to operate a forklift, being able to communicate with fellow workers would have been a safety matter, so it seems reasonable that decent (if not “perfect”) Dutch was required.
On the other hand, it is no secret that language requirements are often used in Belgium, and in particular in Brussels, as an excuse to get rid of certain job applicants…
Whoever posted this feels entitled as fuck and cant figure out the real problem being stringing him along. Not BeLgIuMs AtItuDe NeEdS tO ChAnGe
Hahahah, the big famous “Randstad”. Had 4 online assessments (passed all) had 5 interviews in total for 2 positions. I was “the perfect match” heard it at least 15 times. Result: BOTH FUCKING POSITION “our client has decided to change the position and now they need perfect FRENCH or DUTCH” fuck you thats all I gotta say. Playing with people. After the second one I’ve said I want to take this up with somebody cuz its not on…”They understand my anger” “I am right” and guess what “Sometimes it happens” yea sometimes…twice with me in 2 fucking months same company. Come on now.
None of these positions needed local languages initially. Therefore one of the biggest recruiter agency in Belgium does not even care about what their clients do with candidates as long as the money is in their pocket. In real life most recruiter is a 20 something youngin have no life or business experience following non existent guidelines to rule over people. Lol
47 comments
So you want companies to hire people who cannot communicate with any of their coworkers about anything?
Did you read the text? Its not about perfect he didnt speak dutch, while nobody at where he would have to work speaks english.
Yeah kinda a mayor issue.
Dutch is often very important for safety reasons.
Interim should have figured out if that was necessary first, not suprised considering interimbureaus only try to perform the bare minimum, go cry me a river.
That is terrible. Why would you put somebody through all that only to realise that he doesn’t fit because he can’t speak a language, did you not even figure it out at the interview? It’s devastating having to miss out on job opportunities after the entire process. I feel really bad for him. This job could mean so many things for him and his family.
If farmers who only speak the roughest West Vlaams can explain to Eastern European seasonal workers what to do, I’m sure your average factory or warehouse manager can figure it out as well.
It is particularly annoying that Belgium is so conservative on this because on the other hand you get so many people boasting how great Belgians are at speaking different languages.
It has been identified time and again that Belgium has serious issues with getting immigrants employed. But it seems a lot of companies just don’t want to make the effort, all the while complaining how they can’t find decent staff these days.
I do not see what is wrong with the attitude of the lady. The knowledge of Flemish is a sensitive topic in the North of Belgium.
There’s a difference between ‘PeRfEcT dUtCh’ and no Dutch at all…
They should have said it was a requirement to get the job, but even then you’re not sure, Inknow of some interim-kantoren who sent candidates who didn’t meet requirements at all. A hotel receptionist who was needed to speak dutch, french and english? They sent someone who only speaks french… and more stuff like that.
If the safety and security briefings and documentation are all in dutch, it would indeed be a liability hiring someone that does not understand that. If somebody is not a client-facing position, limited knowledge needs to be sufficient. There are language tests and levels available, so the requirement should be a clearly stated level (B1, C2,…) and the certificate from a recognized language institute should be sufficient to make this a non-issue.
Yes, language is an important communication tool.
Yes, job advertisements should have this information included with sufficient specificity.
No, the subjective judgement of the interviewer about the language skills are not sufficient to deny someone employment.
Even for [some dangerous jobs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWD3GqLOTgk) you don’t have to speak perfect Dutch
Even my 75 year old parents get by with very broken English.
And explain to me how all the farmers work with polish people, with no shared language whatsoever. If the need is there, we make it work
I don’t think it’s ridiculous to ask somebody to speak Dutch in Belgium. I do think it’s ridiculous to have somebody to an entire interview and test and only afterwards let them know they need to know Dutch.
I’m Greek and I moved to Belgium in 2014. It seriously is impossible to find a job when you don’t know the language. People here really won’t bother with English, the times I’ve had people saying to me “you’re in Belgium, speak Dutch” as if I enjoyed being rejected because of the language barrier. It’s possible for English speaking people to get jobs in big cities like Antwerp or Gent, but anywhere else, it’s rough… years later, I’ve learned the language and am working as a waitress and even now, people tend to comment on my accent and I am still rejected for jobs more than my friends because my dutch has a “thick accent”. It’s frustrating. All I can say to your friend is to look for jobs in big cities where a lot of international students come to study, or learn the basics (Dutch) for the job he’s interested in. Good luck! It’s tough out there!
It’s a classic HR trick. It’s not only with language, i’ve applied for a entry leven job once, Interview was flawless. Everyone was stoked, after a few days i get a call they are looking for someone with possible leadership skills. For an entry level job…
Best part, i even have experience as a teammanager. Classic HR f’ing you over.
From my personal experience, if someone states that they 100% like you and are going to send you papers to sign, you will never hear from them.
To be honest: a friend of mine moved to Spain, and at every single job application he was told “You don’t speak Spanish? Sorry, we cannot employ you here”. And I think that’s normal. If/when you move to a different country, you learn the local language. Unless it’s for a temporary job in an international company that already uses English (or whatever) as main communication language.
Also: try using the phrase “please go get the *heftruck* and do this and that” to someone who doesn’t speak Dutch and doesn’t know what a “*heftruck*” is. Good luck.
Kinda intresting how everyone gives their opinions without knowing enough to do so.
Yes they should have communicated before the interview etc. they want him to speak dutch, 100%.
But you can’t know what exactly he has to do in that job so speaking dutch could be very importand. We just don’t know lol.
Imo it’s weird to focus on that last aspect when there is no info about it.
OK first of all i’d like to say that it’s bad that they made the guy do everything and told him they would call him.
BUT i don’t think it’s unreasonable to require someone to speak the language. i know all us internetdwellers know english… but i can take you to full towns where no one in the fucking building knows a word english.
I work as a Belgian consultant in the Netherlands and it is really strange. In Belgium everybody needs to know Dutch or else you’re fucked. In the Netherlands: Oh you speak English, come on and join the club.
Typical HR incompetence. I experienced that situation a few times actually, it’s demotivating and rude as hell for the candidate. For me it was not only about language but sometimes also because of wrong details in the job description.
The worst one was because I didn’t speak dutch for a job in Ixelles/Elsene but the job description didn’t mention it. Had to go there twice (2x400km), did good at the test but then at the interview I met the team I would have to work with and they all spoke dutch, barely english and no french at all. Or they didn’t want to maybe… I don’t know, is it common for someone working in Brussels area to be unable to speak both french and english?
One lesson I learned the hard way is to never trust anything a job interviewer says unless you’re signing a contract. So long as you have not signed anything you are an applicant and nothing has been promised, proven or verified.
I’ve been burned the hard way with a “oh you’re definitely getting the job, you’re an amazing applicant” to then go “yeah, but this and this and that” several times before.
Chances are there were multiple candidates for the same job and they went for someone who speaks dutch over someone who has no grasp of it. I’ve had many interviews in the past that went really well, but eventually went to someone else because of a seemingly irrelevant reason.
Just learn the language. Don’t expect people to cater for you and change the language on the workfloor. That’s not how the world works.
Honestly tho, Im a Belgian living in Finland (Helsinki) and almost all jobs require Finnish knowledge even if it is a very international company that has its main business abroad. And Finland is known for how serious they are about equality and stuff like that. It can be frustrating as hell, I know that. On the other hand I fully understand that they want you to know the Finnish/Swedish language even if you can communicate in English. To put it crudely: they didn’t ask us to move, we can’t expect them to change their ways because we don’t speak the local language. Considering how great life here in Finland is for example, I see learning the language as the least I can do in return. I’m not saying that the person here in this post isn’t doing effort, don’t get me wrong but it will take some time before looking for a job will become easier. It’s not just a Belgian thing like you seem to think, it is pretty common tbh.
I feel like needing to speak dutch isn’t the problem but that he had do the tests and interviews before telling him. They wasted his time.
People realize that if I went to america and didn’t speak English. I’d have the same problem. If I went to france and didn’t speak french I’d have the same problem. I get that it’s annoying to learn a new language but 11millions people here already speak dutch. So my opinion is when in Rome do as romans do.
Is it that strange that you learn the language if you want to stay in a certain country?
It is like this everywhere…
Larger companies have different standards depending on the supervisor. Either that or some interim cunt did a poor job matching his profile. Source: former interim cunt.
My wife was approached by the director of the school in which she was learning Flemish. They perfectly knew her proficiency level. She was sent twice to interviews at about 20km from that school. She met some (future) workmates, managers and mostly everyone in the organization agreed she could make it right and passed all the tests and questionnaires and so on .
Two days after the second meeting she got s call from the big boss telling her that they were already preparing her paperwork and that she was too get further instructions by an administrative person on the next day.
That person called my wife asking whether she could speak dialects too.
And no, she couldn’t.
Something that they knew from minute zero. Our even before, given the nature of that business.
This is only one of her related stories.
Fortunately she didn’t ever worked there and she’s already worked for a number of companies in which English, Spanish, Italian and even dutch (sorry, no dialects) was used.
This employer’s attitude is not an isolated case in my own experience, and destroys the self steem of the candidate. I cannot understand it but with what I call the ibm-syndrome: as a decision maker, i am not being the one who risks.
Language requirements are not stupid. Wasting his time by making him do all the tests is.
I once worked in a company where everyone was from different countries. No one spoke Dutch or English. The could only communicate 3 things with each other: chef (meaning the boss is coming), mimicking cutting your hand (meaning you need a knife) and rubbing your stomach (meaning it’s break time). We somehow made it work and till today it is the best work environment I’ve been in. It was funny how hard we we’re struggling to speak with each other.
YoUr LIngUiSTiC lAnDscAPe NeEdS tO aDaPt To mY pERsoNaL CaPAbILiTy!
I have seen also bad work termination because of language barier with big faults because not undestanding.you need to learn dutch and not rely on other languages. Its hard but its how it is.
oh no I must speak the language in the country where it is spoken
And I don’t even talk perfect Dutch, I was born here…
Wait they could communicate enough to do a great intake and make him do a flawless testdrive with the heftruck but all of a sudden they can’t communicate to have him do the job. That’s suspicious.
Recruiter here. I see alot of discrimination like that which is basically a nice way of a company saying “we don’t want immigrants”.
This is really not ok, especially for labour intensive jobs where communication is not part of your job.
I do have to state that you don’t have to underestimate the importance of communication in a day to day office job. Even if you’ve been learning Dutch for 4 years, it still does impact the workflow in one way or another.
The biggest problem is, companies mostly have the ‘luxury’ to be picky. If you have 2 profiles with the exact same experience, it makes sense a dutch team preferres a dutch native over a non native speaker. I think everyone in some way would prefer someone they can connect to more easily.
As someone who works in a factory near the french border, it kinda sucks working in a factory about 3km from your house where you are born and calling a technician to come and help you only to hear “j’ai pas compri, je suis francais”. And keep in mind this is the flemish backyard and not center of brussels. It’s a flemish factory in a flemish town where people speak exclusivly flemish in everyday life.
Having to speak another language in your hometown on the flemish *boerenbuiten* in order to get your work done because someone else wanted to come and work here but doesnt speak the language is frustrating yeah.
You wont hear me say they dont do their work good, they do, but isnt it a small effort to adapt to the language of the country you come to work in?
I’m surprised that said everybody else only speak dutch. In Belgium, young people often know at least two language, one often being english (and I think it’s even more common for dutch speaker since they have less thing translated in their language while french speaker have more because of France).
But yeah it’s sometimes harder to find a job in Belgium because in some place you need to speak 3 languages or they will favorise someone who speak more languages than you. (My dutch is very basic, my english much better but not perfect)
>ride with the heftruck
They were not wrong about not speaking English.
We speak Dutch here. What tf do you expect? They could be more straight forward, thats true but cmon.
Ok? I don’t see the issue with not hiring people that can’t speak the workplace’s language.
I feel like most people (at least now) can speak better english than french in flanders lol
Yes WhOlE BelGiUm iS BaD BeCaUsE Of ThAt
just learn the language . Especially if you use the system or want to stay. Try this nonsense in the southern part of Belgium
I’m ambivalent about this. On one hand, for some jobs, language fluency is important. In this case, since he’s have had to operate a forklift, being able to communicate with fellow workers would have been a safety matter, so it seems reasonable that decent (if not “perfect”) Dutch was required.
On the other hand, it is no secret that language requirements are often used in Belgium, and in particular in Brussels, as an excuse to get rid of certain job applicants…
Whoever posted this feels entitled as fuck and cant figure out the real problem being stringing him along. Not BeLgIuMs AtItuDe NeEdS tO ChAnGe
Hahahah, the big famous “Randstad”. Had 4 online assessments (passed all) had 5 interviews in total for 2 positions. I was “the perfect match” heard it at least 15 times. Result: BOTH FUCKING POSITION “our client has decided to change the position and now they need perfect FRENCH or DUTCH” fuck you thats all I gotta say. Playing with people. After the second one I’ve said I want to take this up with somebody cuz its not on…”They understand my anger” “I am right” and guess what “Sometimes it happens” yea sometimes…twice with me in 2 fucking months same company. Come on now.
None of these positions needed local languages initially. Therefore one of the biggest recruiter agency in Belgium does not even care about what their clients do with candidates as long as the money is in their pocket. In real life most recruiter is a 20 something youngin have no life or business experience following non existent guidelines to rule over people. Lol