She’s made her position on the subject very clear a number of times.
A reasonable position considering. Up to rulemakers now to try find something to make it fair for everyone. Maybe a trans Olympics? Side point, I think we should also do a pro-steroid Olympics, jack everyone up and see who can push it to the limit the most.
> The World Athletics Council also reaffirmed a decision, originally made in March 2022, to exclude Russian and Belarusian athletes due to the invasion of Ukraine.
They should leave politics out of sport. Banning Russia is all well and good but its a form of propaganda as it demonizes what Russia is doing while legitimising other nations involved in similar conflicts.
So the lay person will think “why haven’t Saudi Arabia been punished for what they’re doing in Yemen but Russia have been punished. What is happening in yemen must not be that bad if they haven’t been banned.”
And banning a team or individuals from playing a tournament won’t help much in the long term, but it allows a bloc of nations to rubber stamp what conflicts are acceptable and what is not.
Before all the mental people on both sides of the argument start it.
It’s unfair for biologically born females to have to complete with a transitioned women (yes both are women) but one has a clear advantage in most sports and I can understand why biologically born women are upset at the prospects (however slim) of competing against a trans female in high level competition.
This isn’t about children or young people playing low-level sports. It’s about top-level athletes not wanting years of work wasted because someone they’re competing against has a scientifically proven advantage (in most but not all sports)
So trans female = woman,
Is it fair = no unfortunatly not.
Is this a complicated issue = Yes,
Am I hanging from last night = god help me.
One of those conversations where my response would be “I don’t know”, because I don’t.
Good to see common sense prevailing on this issue.
Why don’t they just set up a trans women and trans men category? Seems like a fair compromise and solution.
This isn’t a controversial issue. Pretty much everyone agrees on this and the small percentage that don’t will just have to accept it. C’est la vie.
Good
She’s 100% right on this.
Two categories – XX and Open.
Everyone is eligible for Open, but only people who are genetically XX are eligible for XX.
I’m assuming this ban covers female to male trans athletes as well?
My hot take is people who care most about allowing trans people to compete in sports are people who just don’t understand, watch or compete in sports. There is a biological advantage which is why gendered competition was invented in the first place and taking hormone replacement treatments don’t stop that advantage.
The biggest issue and this is why any person who supports trans people should be against trans athletes is just the can of worms it opens. If let’s say we all agree tomorrow to allow trans athletes and then in 5 years the WMBA is entirely filled with trans women or wimbledon is dominated by a trans woman what happens? You convert a bunch of people to be the most anti-trans people you will ever see because of that dominance instead of being just entirely neutral. At the moment transitioning is a social thing, it is how you are seen and how the world sees you. If that then turns into something entirely different it makes the entire argument very different and could be a massive problem for that entire movement. So don’t try is my point, just take the loss, if you transition not competing at the highest level is fine. Social sports are fine, like I don’t really think anyone would care about GAA or your sunday kick around but once money or prestige is involved it changes it.
If you don’t agree with Sonia here, you also have to justify why there’s a separate category for women’s sport at all.
Very curious on Sonia’s/redditor’s thoughts on this.
Caster Semenya is not transgender. She has won two Olympic golds and three World Championships. She was born intersex. She’s not male, never was male. There’s no strong science to indicate she has an advantage due to being born intersex.
South park had a great episode on this topic. The message was basically that it isn’t hatred or bigotry to discuss this problem, it doesn’t mean you hate trans people, it’s simply a discussion that needs to be had
Mia Mulder has a really well researched video-essay on this topic. She’s very fair and considers all viewpoints. If anyone has the time to watch, it’s enjoyable and insightful. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdT1PvJDRo4
Biological males should not be allowed to compete in women’s sports regardless of transition
Correct, it is a good call
It really is a sign of our times that something so fundamentally obvious has become a debatable point. If trans people want to be accepted there has to be some give and take. They must be protected from violence and abuse but at the same time they can’t expect people to say/believe things that are obvious untruths
Not participating in competitive gendered sport is just a sacrifice trans people will have to make peace with.
When the American swimmer Lia Thomas, a transwoman, competed as a male competitor, she ranked 554th in 200 freestyle. When she competed as a female, she ranked 5th in the same event, despite undergoing years of hormone therapy.
I’m all for inclusion, but putting biological males in with biological females, even when the former has spent years transitioning, is patently unfair.
Let me throw in some food for thought here.
Obviously this is an issue with some nuance. Women’s categories in sports exist separately to men’s for a reason. It seems like an obvious thing to say that people who have been born as men shouldn’t get to just switch to the women’s category to get an unfair advantage. But it’s *really* not that simple.
First of all, ask yourself this: what do you think about other issues of fairness in athletics? Do you actually care about athletics at all? Some of you will, of course, but for others, ask yourself why you suddenly care about an issue of fairness in athletics.
If you said it’s an issue affecting other sports, well yeah, fair enough, but then ask yourself if it’s an issue in the sports you care about?
And then ask yourself how much you know about it.
We’re not talking here about athletes who are just declaring a gender change, we’re talking about athletes who are fully transitioning from male to female. Actually, athletes in this situation have been able to compete in the Olympics for 20 years.
In 2003 the IOC issued a policy:
>individuals undergoing sex reassignment from male to female after puberty (and the converse) be eligible for participation in female or male competitions, respectively, under the following conditions:
>1. Surgical anatomical changes have been completed, including external genitalia changes and gonadectomy
>2. Legal recognition of their assigned sex has been conferred by the appropriate official authorities
>3. Hormonal therapy appropriate for the assigned sex has been administered in a verifiable manner and for two years after gonadectomy.
This policy was challenged once, in 2015. By a *trans man*, Chris Mosier. As a result the rules were updated:
>1. Those who transition from female to male are eligible to compete in the male category without restriction.
>2. Those who transition from male to female are eligible to compete in the female category under the following conditions:
>2.1. The athlete has declared that her gender identity is female. The declaration cannot be changed, for sporting purposes, for a minimum of four years.
>2.2. The athlete must demonstrate that her total testosterone level in serum has been below 10 nmol/L for at least 12 months prior to her first competition (with the requirement for any longer period to be based on a confidential case-by-case evaluation, considering whether or not 12 months is a sufficient length of time to minimize any advantage in women’s competition).
>2.3. The athlete’s total testosterone level in serum must remain below 10nmol/L throughout the period of desired eligibility to compete in the female category.
>2.4. Compliance with these conditions may be monitored by testing. In the event of non-compliance, the athlete’s eligibility for female competition will be suspended for 12 months.
Well, a grand total of zero trans athletes qualified for the Olympics until Tokyo in 2021.
Actually, 4 trans/nonbinary athletes competed in Tokyo.
Laurel Hubbard – New Zealand weightlifter
Quinn (nonbinary) – Canadian women’s soccer player
Chelsea Wolfe – United States BMX alternate
Alana Smith (nonbinary) – United States skateboarder
No trans athlete has ever qualified for the Olympics in athletics, in 20 years of the policy existing.
So while you’re asking yourself why you care so much about an issue of fairness in athletics, also ask yourself why you care so much about what’s basically a hypothetical issue.
Trans women who are transitioning aren’t just saying “yo, I’m female now”, they’re taking hormone replacement drugs that have a massive and widespread effect on the body, affecting oxygen uptake, bone density, testosterone production, and more.
We’re talking about athletes who are taking performance *un-enhancing* drugs.
And there is *no* evidence to suggest these athletes have an advantage. Don’t just take my word for it, this is what World Athletics themselves said *while issuing the ban*:
>”there are currently no transgender athletes competing internationally in athletics and consequently no athletics-specific evidence of the impact these athletes would have on the fairness of female competition in athletics”
In fact the only people who have ever been affected by rules like this at the top level are women who aren’t trans. Rules like this have forced women to undergo genital inspections and take testosterone suppressants. Women like Caster Semenya.
It seems natural to want to ensure fairness for women, but this is not what this is about. This is about finding an issue that looks reasonable to get ordinary people to agree to the exclusion of trans people from something.
The current rules have been fine for 20 years, and there’s no immediate prospect of any unfairness actually happening.
This is “You’re not looking to do this, but we just want to let you know that if you were, you can’t” – wrapped up in apparent fairness to make it look reasonable.
I don’t see why this is such a controversial take. A male is, for the most part, physically more developed than a female due to hormones when they were growing up. If that male then transitions, it doesn’t suddenly change how they developed when they were growing up, putting them at a great advantage.
Depending on the sport, it could also put people who grew up female in danger if they are competing with each other.
No matter your feelings about these things, those are the basic facts on the topic.
So unless you change sport to segregate it by physical size with combined male and female athletes, I do not think it is a good idea for people who have transitioned to being female to be allowed to compete in women’s sports.
Normal people everywhere rejoice at common sense winning out
How did this shit ever even become a debate?
I kinda agree with Sonia here expect I think a distinctionshoild be made for when people transition. If it’s pre puberty and haven’t spent they teen year full of testosterone then it’s likely they won’t actually have an advantage.
It’s a awkward one and one that I would avoid talking about if I was her, there’s really nothing to gain by publically declaring a view on it.
She is 100% correct but the triggered twitter mob will descend on her now.
If you think trans women should compete with biological women in many popular sports you are truly off the deep end, it’s a profoundly flawed notion
“However, there are currently no transgender athletes competing internationally in athletics and consequently no athletics-specific evidence of the impact these athletes would have on the fairness of female competition in athletics,”
The discussion around trans people in sports is a political issue that has almost nothing to do with actual professional sports. If it was really about the sport then the complaints would have started *after* trans athletes started outperforming cis ones, not before. This is just about people who already dislike trans people winning political victories against the trans community.
It’s a common sense call and bizarre it was ever up for debate.
Good for her for saying it. I feel a lot of people are terrified to say what they believe on issues like this because of the backlash from the Rainbow Mafia.
There is a clear advantage in professional sports in almost all cases for men who get sex change to present as female. Allowing it would be a middle finger to all actual female professionals who dedicated years of effort to get to highest level only to get beat by someone who physical advantages they’ll never be able to get
How many trans athletes are there realistically in Ireland? Genuinely curious. It seems to me like a relatively small percent of the population are being targeted by a media flurry. Can’t fault O’Sullivan for answering a question put to her, of course.
How the fuck is this shit even an argument
Why do I feel like this sudden upsurge of trans political discussions are being brought up right when the housing crisis is at it’s worst with the eviction ban expiring? Sure, let’s distract the young folks with things younger people tend to care more about like trans issues.
After looking through this comment section and seeing that anyone who suggests any sort of workaround for transwomen in womens sports is being downvoted, I’ve realised a couple of things. Many people here don’t know what HRT and hormone blockers are and seem to think transwomen have identical bodies to cismen. They also don’t seem to understand that HRT continues to change the body the longer it’s taken. Many people also don’t seem open to discussion- I think more research on HRT should be done before we ban all transwomen without a thought. It could turn out that after a certain period of years of taking HRT a transwoman might be fine to compete in women’s sports- but we don’t know because HRT and its long term effects need to be better researched. If you are actually interested in having a fair perspective on this topic (for both cis and trans women), we should actually consider if trans women have advantages (and what they are) and whether or not any workarounds are possible that would make the sport fair for both cis and trans women.
38 comments
She’s made her position on the subject very clear a number of times.
A reasonable position considering. Up to rulemakers now to try find something to make it fair for everyone. Maybe a trans Olympics? Side point, I think we should also do a pro-steroid Olympics, jack everyone up and see who can push it to the limit the most.
> The World Athletics Council also reaffirmed a decision, originally made in March 2022, to exclude Russian and Belarusian athletes due to the invasion of Ukraine.
They should leave politics out of sport. Banning Russia is all well and good but its a form of propaganda as it demonizes what Russia is doing while legitimising other nations involved in similar conflicts.
So the lay person will think “why haven’t Saudi Arabia been punished for what they’re doing in Yemen but Russia have been punished. What is happening in yemen must not be that bad if they haven’t been banned.”
And banning a team or individuals from playing a tournament won’t help much in the long term, but it allows a bloc of nations to rubber stamp what conflicts are acceptable and what is not.
Before all the mental people on both sides of the argument start it.
It’s unfair for biologically born females to have to complete with a transitioned women (yes both are women) but one has a clear advantage in most sports and I can understand why biologically born women are upset at the prospects (however slim) of competing against a trans female in high level competition.
This isn’t about children or young people playing low-level sports. It’s about top-level athletes not wanting years of work wasted because someone they’re competing against has a scientifically proven advantage (in most but not all sports)
So trans female = woman,
Is it fair = no unfortunatly not.
Is this a complicated issue = Yes,
Am I hanging from last night = god help me.
One of those conversations where my response would be “I don’t know”, because I don’t.
Good to see common sense prevailing on this issue.
Why don’t they just set up a trans women and trans men category? Seems like a fair compromise and solution.
[“Available evidence indicates trans women who have
undergone testosterone suppression have no clear
biological advantages over cis women in elite sport.” ](https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/trans-women-athletes-have-no-unfair-advantage-under-current-rules-study-finds)
Report linked in the article.
This isn’t a controversial issue. Pretty much everyone agrees on this and the small percentage that don’t will just have to accept it. C’est la vie.
Good
She’s 100% right on this.
Two categories – XX and Open.
Everyone is eligible for Open, but only people who are genetically XX are eligible for XX.
I’m assuming this ban covers female to male trans athletes as well?
My hot take is people who care most about allowing trans people to compete in sports are people who just don’t understand, watch or compete in sports. There is a biological advantage which is why gendered competition was invented in the first place and taking hormone replacement treatments don’t stop that advantage.
The biggest issue and this is why any person who supports trans people should be against trans athletes is just the can of worms it opens. If let’s say we all agree tomorrow to allow trans athletes and then in 5 years the WMBA is entirely filled with trans women or wimbledon is dominated by a trans woman what happens? You convert a bunch of people to be the most anti-trans people you will ever see because of that dominance instead of being just entirely neutral. At the moment transitioning is a social thing, it is how you are seen and how the world sees you. If that then turns into something entirely different it makes the entire argument very different and could be a massive problem for that entire movement. So don’t try is my point, just take the loss, if you transition not competing at the highest level is fine. Social sports are fine, like I don’t really think anyone would care about GAA or your sunday kick around but once money or prestige is involved it changes it.
If you don’t agree with Sonia here, you also have to justify why there’s a separate category for women’s sport at all.
Very curious on Sonia’s/redditor’s thoughts on this.
[The World Athletics Council’s new rules, if enforced, would require Caster Semenya to take hormones to compete. ](https://apnews.com/article/transgender-track-semenya-f3499b00b932948f96838adb3b010f11)
Caster Semenya is not transgender. She has won two Olympic golds and three World Championships. She was born intersex. She’s not male, never was male. There’s no strong science to indicate she has an advantage due to being born intersex.
South park had a great episode on this topic. The message was basically that it isn’t hatred or bigotry to discuss this problem, it doesn’t mean you hate trans people, it’s simply a discussion that needs to be had
Mia Mulder has a really well researched video-essay on this topic. She’s very fair and considers all viewpoints. If anyone has the time to watch, it’s enjoyable and insightful. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdT1PvJDRo4
Biological males should not be allowed to compete in women’s sports regardless of transition
Correct, it is a good call
It really is a sign of our times that something so fundamentally obvious has become a debatable point. If trans people want to be accepted there has to be some give and take. They must be protected from violence and abuse but at the same time they can’t expect people to say/believe things that are obvious untruths
Not participating in competitive gendered sport is just a sacrifice trans people will have to make peace with.
When the American swimmer Lia Thomas, a transwoman, competed as a male competitor, she ranked 554th in 200 freestyle. When she competed as a female, she ranked 5th in the same event, despite undergoing years of hormone therapy.
I’m all for inclusion, but putting biological males in with biological females, even when the former has spent years transitioning, is patently unfair.
Let me throw in some food for thought here.
Obviously this is an issue with some nuance. Women’s categories in sports exist separately to men’s for a reason. It seems like an obvious thing to say that people who have been born as men shouldn’t get to just switch to the women’s category to get an unfair advantage. But it’s *really* not that simple.
First of all, ask yourself this: what do you think about other issues of fairness in athletics? Do you actually care about athletics at all? Some of you will, of course, but for others, ask yourself why you suddenly care about an issue of fairness in athletics.
If you said it’s an issue affecting other sports, well yeah, fair enough, but then ask yourself if it’s an issue in the sports you care about?
And then ask yourself how much you know about it.
We’re not talking here about athletes who are just declaring a gender change, we’re talking about athletes who are fully transitioning from male to female. Actually, athletes in this situation have been able to compete in the Olympics for 20 years.
In 2003 the IOC issued a policy:
>individuals undergoing sex reassignment from male to female after puberty (and the converse) be eligible for participation in female or male competitions, respectively, under the following conditions:
>1. Surgical anatomical changes have been completed, including external genitalia changes and gonadectomy
>2. Legal recognition of their assigned sex has been conferred by the appropriate official authorities
>3. Hormonal therapy appropriate for the assigned sex has been administered in a verifiable manner and for two years after gonadectomy.
This policy was challenged once, in 2015. By a *trans man*, Chris Mosier. As a result the rules were updated:
>1. Those who transition from female to male are eligible to compete in the male category without restriction.
>2. Those who transition from male to female are eligible to compete in the female category under the following conditions:
>2.1. The athlete has declared that her gender identity is female. The declaration cannot be changed, for sporting purposes, for a minimum of four years.
>2.2. The athlete must demonstrate that her total testosterone level in serum has been below 10 nmol/L for at least 12 months prior to her first competition (with the requirement for any longer period to be based on a confidential case-by-case evaluation, considering whether or not 12 months is a sufficient length of time to minimize any advantage in women’s competition).
>2.3. The athlete’s total testosterone level in serum must remain below 10nmol/L throughout the period of desired eligibility to compete in the female category.
>2.4. Compliance with these conditions may be monitored by testing. In the event of non-compliance, the athlete’s eligibility for female competition will be suspended for 12 months.
[source](https://www.transathlete.com/olympics)
How big an issue has it been?
Well, a grand total of zero trans athletes qualified for the Olympics until Tokyo in 2021.
Actually, 4 trans/nonbinary athletes competed in Tokyo.
Laurel Hubbard – New Zealand weightlifter
Quinn (nonbinary) – Canadian women’s soccer player
Chelsea Wolfe – United States BMX alternate
Alana Smith (nonbinary) – United States skateboarder
No trans athlete has ever qualified for the Olympics in athletics, in 20 years of the policy existing.
So while you’re asking yourself why you care so much about an issue of fairness in athletics, also ask yourself why you care so much about what’s basically a hypothetical issue.
Trans women who are transitioning aren’t just saying “yo, I’m female now”, they’re taking hormone replacement drugs that have a massive and widespread effect on the body, affecting oxygen uptake, bone density, testosterone production, and more.
We’re talking about athletes who are taking performance *un-enhancing* drugs.
And there is *no* evidence to suggest these athletes have an advantage. Don’t just take my word for it, this is what World Athletics themselves said *while issuing the ban*:
>”there are currently no transgender athletes competing internationally in athletics and consequently no athletics-specific evidence of the impact these athletes would have on the fairness of female competition in athletics”
In fact the only people who have ever been affected by rules like this at the top level are women who aren’t trans. Rules like this have forced women to undergo genital inspections and take testosterone suppressants. Women like Caster Semenya.
It seems natural to want to ensure fairness for women, but this is not what this is about. This is about finding an issue that looks reasonable to get ordinary people to agree to the exclusion of trans people from something.
The current rules have been fine for 20 years, and there’s no immediate prospect of any unfairness actually happening.
This is “You’re not looking to do this, but we just want to let you know that if you were, you can’t” – wrapped up in apparent fairness to make it look reasonable.
I don’t see why this is such a controversial take. A male is, for the most part, physically more developed than a female due to hormones when they were growing up. If that male then transitions, it doesn’t suddenly change how they developed when they were growing up, putting them at a great advantage.
Depending on the sport, it could also put people who grew up female in danger if they are competing with each other.
No matter your feelings about these things, those are the basic facts on the topic.
So unless you change sport to segregate it by physical size with combined male and female athletes, I do not think it is a good idea for people who have transitioned to being female to be allowed to compete in women’s sports.
Normal people everywhere rejoice at common sense winning out
How did this shit ever even become a debate?
I kinda agree with Sonia here expect I think a distinctionshoild be made for when people transition. If it’s pre puberty and haven’t spent they teen year full of testosterone then it’s likely they won’t actually have an advantage.
It’s a awkward one and one that I would avoid talking about if I was her, there’s really nothing to gain by publically declaring a view on it.
She is 100% correct but the triggered twitter mob will descend on her now.
If you think trans women should compete with biological women in many popular sports you are truly off the deep end, it’s a profoundly flawed notion
“However, there are currently no transgender athletes competing internationally in athletics and consequently no athletics-specific evidence of the impact these athletes would have on the fairness of female competition in athletics,”
The discussion around trans people in sports is a political issue that has almost nothing to do with actual professional sports. If it was really about the sport then the complaints would have started *after* trans athletes started outperforming cis ones, not before. This is just about people who already dislike trans people winning political victories against the trans community.
It’s a common sense call and bizarre it was ever up for debate.
Good for her for saying it. I feel a lot of people are terrified to say what they believe on issues like this because of the backlash from the Rainbow Mafia.
There is a clear advantage in professional sports in almost all cases for men who get sex change to present as female. Allowing it would be a middle finger to all actual female professionals who dedicated years of effort to get to highest level only to get beat by someone who physical advantages they’ll never be able to get
How many trans athletes are there realistically in Ireland? Genuinely curious. It seems to me like a relatively small percent of the population are being targeted by a media flurry. Can’t fault O’Sullivan for answering a question put to her, of course.
How the fuck is this shit even an argument
Why do I feel like this sudden upsurge of trans political discussions are being brought up right when the housing crisis is at it’s worst with the eviction ban expiring? Sure, let’s distract the young folks with things younger people tend to care more about like trans issues.
After looking through this comment section and seeing that anyone who suggests any sort of workaround for transwomen in womens sports is being downvoted, I’ve realised a couple of things. Many people here don’t know what HRT and hormone blockers are and seem to think transwomen have identical bodies to cismen. They also don’t seem to understand that HRT continues to change the body the longer it’s taken. Many people also don’t seem open to discussion- I think more research on HRT should be done before we ban all transwomen without a thought. It could turn out that after a certain period of years of taking HRT a transwoman might be fine to compete in women’s sports- but we don’t know because HRT and its long term effects need to be better researched. If you are actually interested in having a fair perspective on this topic (for both cis and trans women), we should actually consider if trans women have advantages (and what they are) and whether or not any workarounds are possible that would make the sport fair for both cis and trans women.