As I’ve said and seen said, the neutrality thing has been a bit of a crock for almost its entire duration but that doesn’t somehow mean that people are uncomfortable with it. The reality is that most people don’t have a strong opinion either way beyond behavioural inertia encouraging them to keep things as is. Changing this policy will _probably_ result in no major changes in our politics but similarly there is always the risk of something unexpected, safety in the familiar so.
My personal opinion is that we should formally drop it, or at least stop acting as though we haven’t let the US use Shannon as an airbase whenever its convinient for them. If an accounting of the war crimes committed during the “War on Terror” ever comes to pass we’ll be tarred as much as the rest of the West imo.
In favour of keeping neutral stance to defending our borders, would be open to widening borders to EU.
Fund the navy by making a Cops style TV show to sell to other networks.
*Buachaillí dona, buachaillí dona, cad a dhéanfaidh tú?*
Ireland isn’t really neutral. Successive governments have used the excuse to justify spending nothing on defence but the reality is we’re just defenceless. Switzerland is neutral but puts significant amounts into defence and has its own defence industry. Peace and stability is built through a strong defence but bring up any of that talk and you’ll get the usual spiel from the kumbaya can’t we all just get along Brigade.
Neutrality is like Ireland Brexit – it’s irrational, half arsed, and once you try to describe it or pin it down, it changes shape.
If ireland was neutral during world war 2, against the actual nazis, and neutral during the cold war, when the soviets controlled half of Europe, exactly what the fuck has changed that things are somehow *more dangerous* now and we need to rush into abandoning our neutrality (however bs it is in practice).
I hope anyone pro joining NATO or whatever crap they’re going to try sell to us will be the first to sign their kids up when it’s time to “liberate” the middle east again or defend French corporate interests in Africa, because any sane rational person can see this for the crock it is.
I can only imagine there’s a lot in it for the political class to be pushing this so hard. A hard no thanks, from me at least.
The forum is much broader than “neutrality”. It’s also a cut down version of a Citizens’ Assembly. It’s also being chaired by a distinguished academic who is a Dame Commander of the Order of the British Empire.
The narrative about the DF has been established for decades by FFG. They are going to find it very hard to change anything about Defence without abandoning that pacifist narrative which undermined our sovereignty and independence.
The forum will recommend an end to the triple lock, a closer alignment of Defence with the UK, improvements in cyber, de mining, peace keeping. In short, much more of what we have. The govt has no wish to end us being a UK dependency having made us one.
I certainly don’t see any harm in reviewing it. I also don’t see any harm in defining what exactly we are. People say we are ‘neutral’, but we are not.
The only acceptable definition of neutral is the UN definition, which we don’t meet anyway.
I’m always intrigued by the ‘send your kids to war’ brigade as an immediate response to changing absolutely anything about our defence policy.
Where does cyber warfare fit in, for example? Plenty of questions that could benefit from a healthy debate, which we won’t get unfortunately.
I support us being able to defend ourselves.
We are free and democratic which putin and xi has effectively declared war on
Edit for the downvoters – Check out the Chinese side called unrestricted warfare and then check out the American side stealth war… both books and you will understand
Jaysus these lads are mad to get our kids killed in some future resource war. Fuck. That. Noise.
Improve our cybersecurity capabilities and navy first.
We dont need to join NATO to accomplish this.
r/europe is gonna jerk themselves raw thinking about this.
We realistically have never been neutral and Irelands special forces and peace keepers regularly train with nato/nato countries.
Should we join NATO hell no, we’ll be protected regardless!
Do we need to put more finances into our military ? most definitely we should have a decent navy and airforce at the very least to monitor our coastline. Especially since there will be billions put into off shore wind farms as well
If we weren’t neutral, people would start asking uncomfortable questions about our general military capability.
Improve defense. Definitely.
Don’t lump that into “neutrality”, which in practical terms means not aligned or not in a formal defense agreement. We can still respond morally in how we see fit, it’s just since independence we make it a big point not to tie ourselves to other people’s conflicts and take the risk of not formally towing ourselves to ours. We shouldn’t forget that was largely in response to the horrors of the first World war and centuries of Irish people dying in other people’s wars.
But Europe faced bigger threats during the 20th century (examples from Sudetenland in ’36 to Hungary ’56) but we didn’t break neutrality then so you’d wonder what’s different now. WW3 is still likely to be nuclear and irrelevant how we align, there’s little hope for anyone. Communism/capitalism is not the threat needing containment as it once was. It’s likely that Putin’s Russia is a short term threat to anyone, as after Putin the whole thing may fade and fracture, and it’s not really ideological. China versus west for global hegemony is a more likely future cold war. Most future conflicts will probably concern trade, hegemony and resources (and probably be exacerbated by climate change) and Ireland can’t predict how we will be seen. The US/UK/EU will probably look out for us, it’s in there interest, but who knows how stable and united they’ll be in 50-100 years time. Defense planning should take into account long term thinking like that, it can take decades to develop military training and equipment. Ireland is not a big target for anyone, but it’s is still a potential target for its strategic Atlantic location, share of global tech and pharmaceuticals, sources of some important metals, food or water supply. The most realistic threat is still paramilitaries in northern Ireland or political instability in the UK. We may have threats from the intelligence services of other nations, even friendly ones, and even the major corporations could be spying on us or manipulating us that should be defended against too.
But, definitely, improve defense. Every country needs something to dissuade aggression. We don’t need a larger conventional military but we definitely need improved cyber, intelligence, air defence and maritime patrol capability. Make the DF a really highly equipped and well paid force. Make it as competitive as the private sector and help keep it’s talent. We don’t need fighters, or tanks, or cruisers. We do need a decent radar system, drones, cyber defense capabilities and crewed patrol vessels. We need decent special forces, counter-insurgency abilities in case of a difficult united Ireland, some conventional forces to secure the border if shit breaks down with the UK, and in the rare chance of invasion we need forces that can disperse and use skills in guerilla fighting. In a million years we won’t be making any last stands or big set piece battles.
Well There’s no such thing as neutrality we all participate in some shape or form but I still don’t want us to be part of NATO and all that funky business we’re perfectly fine geographically and politically There’s no threat for us, I’d be up for upping our spending on our military tho it’s a fukin joke we can’t even do the most basic things then you wonder why they lack staff and all its a circus
I 100% support Ukraine but anything this government proposes get no support from me until they step aside and let someone competent fix housing. Do the right thing and call an election.
Micheál “Camera Shy” Martin & Liar Leaky Leo wanting to appear diplomatic for the media, gobshites.
Be Switzerland!
I am appalled that we stood by when 5m+ Jews were murdered, then sent sympathy to hitlers family and friends. Neutrality is nothing to be proud of. Standing up for the weakest amongst us is.
Which FF/FG ex TD or party loyalist, is now an arms lobbiest?
When this doesn’t work, they’ll say we have to arm the Garda, again…
How about we build houses for our people and resolve our homeless problems? We don’t need to be getting all military now. Stick it up for referendum so we can tell ye.
What military
The governments latest BIG PUSH to herd the Irish into the “good europeans” corner and nag and gaslight us into line, like Lisbon and Nice. Wouldnt eliminating Irish neutrality look just great on the CV of an outgoing FF leader when he shops his arse around the EU looking for a big job
25 comments
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This’ll be a calm thread I’m sure.
As I’ve said and seen said, the neutrality thing has been a bit of a crock for almost its entire duration but that doesn’t somehow mean that people are uncomfortable with it. The reality is that most people don’t have a strong opinion either way beyond behavioural inertia encouraging them to keep things as is. Changing this policy will _probably_ result in no major changes in our politics but similarly there is always the risk of something unexpected, safety in the familiar so.
My personal opinion is that we should formally drop it, or at least stop acting as though we haven’t let the US use Shannon as an airbase whenever its convinient for them. If an accounting of the war crimes committed during the “War on Terror” ever comes to pass we’ll be tarred as much as the rest of the West imo.
In favour of keeping neutral stance to defending our borders, would be open to widening borders to EU.
Fund the navy by making a Cops style TV show to sell to other networks.
*Buachaillí dona, buachaillí dona, cad a dhéanfaidh tú?*
Ireland isn’t really neutral. Successive governments have used the excuse to justify spending nothing on defence but the reality is we’re just defenceless. Switzerland is neutral but puts significant amounts into defence and has its own defence industry. Peace and stability is built through a strong defence but bring up any of that talk and you’ll get the usual spiel from the kumbaya can’t we all just get along Brigade.
Neutrality is like Ireland Brexit – it’s irrational, half arsed, and once you try to describe it or pin it down, it changes shape.
If ireland was neutral during world war 2, against the actual nazis, and neutral during the cold war, when the soviets controlled half of Europe, exactly what the fuck has changed that things are somehow *more dangerous* now and we need to rush into abandoning our neutrality (however bs it is in practice).
I hope anyone pro joining NATO or whatever crap they’re going to try sell to us will be the first to sign their kids up when it’s time to “liberate” the middle east again or defend French corporate interests in Africa, because any sane rational person can see this for the crock it is.
I can only imagine there’s a lot in it for the political class to be pushing this so hard. A hard no thanks, from me at least.
The forum is much broader than “neutrality”. It’s also a cut down version of a Citizens’ Assembly. It’s also being chaired by a distinguished academic who is a Dame Commander of the Order of the British Empire.
The narrative about the DF has been established for decades by FFG. They are going to find it very hard to change anything about Defence without abandoning that pacifist narrative which undermined our sovereignty and independence.
The forum will recommend an end to the triple lock, a closer alignment of Defence with the UK, improvements in cyber, de mining, peace keeping. In short, much more of what we have. The govt has no wish to end us being a UK dependency having made us one.
I certainly don’t see any harm in reviewing it. I also don’t see any harm in defining what exactly we are. People say we are ‘neutral’, but we are not.
The only acceptable definition of neutral is the UN definition, which we don’t meet anyway.
I’m always intrigued by the ‘send your kids to war’ brigade as an immediate response to changing absolutely anything about our defence policy.
Where does cyber warfare fit in, for example? Plenty of questions that could benefit from a healthy debate, which we won’t get unfortunately.
I support us being able to defend ourselves.
We are free and democratic which putin and xi has effectively declared war on
Edit for the downvoters – Check out the Chinese side called unrestricted warfare and then check out the American side stealth war… both books and you will understand
Jaysus these lads are mad to get our kids killed in some future resource war. Fuck. That. Noise.
Improve our cybersecurity capabilities and navy first.
We dont need to join NATO to accomplish this.
r/europe is gonna jerk themselves raw thinking about this.
We realistically have never been neutral and Irelands special forces and peace keepers regularly train with nato/nato countries.
Should we join NATO hell no, we’ll be protected regardless!
Do we need to put more finances into our military ? most definitely we should have a decent navy and airforce at the very least to monitor our coastline. Especially since there will be billions put into off shore wind farms as well
If we weren’t neutral, people would start asking uncomfortable questions about our general military capability.
Improve defense. Definitely.
Don’t lump that into “neutrality”, which in practical terms means not aligned or not in a formal defense agreement. We can still respond morally in how we see fit, it’s just since independence we make it a big point not to tie ourselves to other people’s conflicts and take the risk of not formally towing ourselves to ours. We shouldn’t forget that was largely in response to the horrors of the first World war and centuries of Irish people dying in other people’s wars.
But Europe faced bigger threats during the 20th century (examples from Sudetenland in ’36 to Hungary ’56) but we didn’t break neutrality then so you’d wonder what’s different now. WW3 is still likely to be nuclear and irrelevant how we align, there’s little hope for anyone. Communism/capitalism is not the threat needing containment as it once was. It’s likely that Putin’s Russia is a short term threat to anyone, as after Putin the whole thing may fade and fracture, and it’s not really ideological. China versus west for global hegemony is a more likely future cold war. Most future conflicts will probably concern trade, hegemony and resources (and probably be exacerbated by climate change) and Ireland can’t predict how we will be seen. The US/UK/EU will probably look out for us, it’s in there interest, but who knows how stable and united they’ll be in 50-100 years time. Defense planning should take into account long term thinking like that, it can take decades to develop military training and equipment. Ireland is not a big target for anyone, but it’s is still a potential target for its strategic Atlantic location, share of global tech and pharmaceuticals, sources of some important metals, food or water supply. The most realistic threat is still paramilitaries in northern Ireland or political instability in the UK. We may have threats from the intelligence services of other nations, even friendly ones, and even the major corporations could be spying on us or manipulating us that should be defended against too.
But, definitely, improve defense. Every country needs something to dissuade aggression. We don’t need a larger conventional military but we definitely need improved cyber, intelligence, air defence and maritime patrol capability. Make the DF a really highly equipped and well paid force. Make it as competitive as the private sector and help keep it’s talent. We don’t need fighters, or tanks, or cruisers. We do need a decent radar system, drones, cyber defense capabilities and crewed patrol vessels. We need decent special forces, counter-insurgency abilities in case of a difficult united Ireland, some conventional forces to secure the border if shit breaks down with the UK, and in the rare chance of invasion we need forces that can disperse and use skills in guerilla fighting. In a million years we won’t be making any last stands or big set piece battles.
Well There’s no such thing as neutrality we all participate in some shape or form but I still don’t want us to be part of NATO and all that funky business we’re perfectly fine geographically and politically There’s no threat for us, I’d be up for upping our spending on our military tho it’s a fukin joke we can’t even do the most basic things then you wonder why they lack staff and all its a circus
I 100% support Ukraine but anything this government proposes get no support from me until they step aside and let someone competent fix housing. Do the right thing and call an election.
Micheál “Camera Shy” Martin & Liar Leaky Leo wanting to appear diplomatic for the media, gobshites.
Be Switzerland!
I am appalled that we stood by when 5m+ Jews were murdered, then sent sympathy to hitlers family and friends. Neutrality is nothing to be proud of. Standing up for the weakest amongst us is.
Which FF/FG ex TD or party loyalist, is now an arms lobbiest?
When this doesn’t work, they’ll say we have to arm the Garda, again…
How about we build houses for our people and resolve our homeless problems? We don’t need to be getting all military now. Stick it up for referendum so we can tell ye.
What military
The governments latest BIG PUSH to herd the Irish into the “good europeans” corner and nag and gaslight us into line, like Lisbon and Nice. Wouldnt eliminating Irish neutrality look just great on the CV of an outgoing FF leader when he shops his arse around the EU looking for a big job