So what was the plan? Move everyone into there? My family was juuuust north of it at the south end of the Obersee.
Valais
Yeah let’s give up 80% of the population, 90% of the cool places and defend the fucking mountains.
Most retard “plan” ever, yet the population bought it. Up to about the year 2000 you would hear people explain how the nazis did not attack Switzerland because of their mighty army and great defense.
It was meant to save the bundesrat
Let’s not politicize the debate !
They didn’t even try to defend Schaffhausen.
Also called The Shire
>tfw Porrentruy
“All right all right you can take Geneva I guess”
as it was explained to me, at the time, the primary value of Switzerland was as a transit route to the south. The Gotthard tunnel was one of the few reliable routes, especially in winter. The Swiss did allow transit (unarmed!).
The purpose of the reduit was to make conquest difficult and Switzerland unusable as a transit route should the Germans try anyway.
Tldr: It was better for Germany to leave Switzerland whole than try to take it
Make sense, Valais and Alps are the most strategic place to defence because of the relief/mountains/river
I live near to the blue line, now I know why there are so many tank traps and small concrete bunkers scattered around here
In his book La Place de la Concorde Suisse, John McPhee writes in detail about the Reduits.
Hobbitland
What’s the source of that map? While it looks a bit military in style, it lacks the typical markings of a military map…
Also, it does not depict actual unit locations and defence lines from WWII, or later.
In answer to some comments I saw elsewhere, I don’t think the plan was ever to move the population into the réduit for two logical reasons: space and food availability. It would be interesting to research what the plan actually was (I guess essentially move the population away from combat operations into protected refugee-camps which would change hands as the frontlines move) because I sincerely doubt anyone envisioned a “medieval castle”-type situation.
That is, btw, the reason some question the ultimate viability of the whole réduit idea: the adversary could seize control of all the major cities, the population, most of the arable land, almost all industrial production, a very interesting east-west land-corridor, two major water-corridors and just wait for the army to run out of supplies and eventually come down their mountain.
While the propaganda-value of the réduit is unquestionable (it has achieved a mythical status and become a cornerstone of a certain idea of suissitude, to the point where international news crews still show up to talk about it when it has been officially abandoned and dismantled for over 20 years now) its tactical and strategic practicality has to be put into perspective…
It seems like a lot of people here don’t understand why this plan was the best.
This plan right there, was designed to be lost. It was designed to be the biggest pain in the arse in the entire europe. It was designed to prevent the only thing our enemy was looking for: Link Germany to Italy through the alps.
And this blue fortress right there? That was not only the best place to defend. That was *the only place*.
“BuT wHat AbOuT tHE ciTieS?!.”
We don’t give a single fuck about holding cities on the Plateau. Because *they will be lost*. And if they are not lost, *they will be encircled*. And then lost.
The point was not to hold cities for 2 weeks and be a speed bump to german Blitz Krieg like Belgium. The point was holding the alps for 3 months and be the worst neighbors imaginable, causing significant german losses.
**This is the only reason we were not invaded**. Germany knew it needed 6-8 soldiers for every swiss soldier killed. And with USSR on the right, Britain in the ass, and now Normandy’s landings, there were no way they would have chosen this manpower sacrifice just to link Germany and Italy.
Do not forget that all the roads that lead to the Réduit were defended as well. Bridges were mined. It would be a constant attrition up until the final fortress.
Utterly useless, if only they knew then that they would invite their main threat, the Germans, in years later and readily hand them key positions in the country, making them more than 1 million in the country already
Of course the r/MapPorn post of this immediately diverts to Nazis and gold. Never change reddit
How interesting that the last line of defense from the Nazi’s is in primarily the German speaking parts 🤔
,
La Place de la Concorde Suisse …
Konkordiaplatz …
Sounds cynical but it would have been really interesting to see this in action. I kind of belive the reduit was just a big occupational therapy to keep the army busy. I’m not sure how the army would have held up sitting in the mountains looking down on burning villages and cities in the distance. Keeping morale high would have been nearly impossible.
My Grandpa was on the Jura line. Him and other soldiers found a German soldier deserting. They swaped uniforms, to take pictures. Then brought him in. Got reprimanded because they didn’t take his rifle.
I feel like it’s a trap from military to see what internet know
Tannenbaum plan is well known now.
After disastrous Italian campaigns in the Southern Alps, even against forces that almost already had surrendered, Germans reconsidered the difficulty of mountain assaults.
Switzerland was not France, and fighting to take te redoubt would have meant fighting men who had nothing to loose anymore (families would have been starving and dying in the plains).
It was a time when helicopters didn’t exist and large scale airdrops over extremely rugged positions against prepared defenders was suicide.
Plus don’t forget psychological aspects, Switzerland was the land of the Edelweiss and Heidi, Swiss soldiers were large part of the inspiration of Prussian war traditions. Ideal Arian looks more like an Uri farmer than the regular SS officer. And they would have spoken the same language. Ideological aspects would have been tricky.
The Reich would need to overtake Switzerland very quickly and swiftly and long term violent occupation would have extremely politically damaging.
For that I suppose they would have needed >500’000 men and gear that didn’t exist after 1942 anymore.
IMO, Redoubt was the only credible response, the atomic bomb of its day. It was very specific to Switzerland and guaranteed the country would have been left mostly alone as long as Hitler was fighting other wars elsewhere.
It almost resembles the area of the Lex Weber where people are not allowed anymore to build secondary residential house, because they overpass the quota of 20%.
Is that a coincidence? I don’t think so…
29 comments
Seems like we’re expendables 🙁
So what was the plan? Move everyone into there? My family was juuuust north of it at the south end of the Obersee.
Valais
Yeah let’s give up 80% of the population, 90% of the cool places and defend the fucking mountains.
Most retard “plan” ever, yet the population bought it. Up to about the year 2000 you would hear people explain how the nazis did not attack Switzerland because of their mighty army and great defense.
It was meant to save the bundesrat
Let’s not politicize the debate !
They didn’t even try to defend Schaffhausen.
Also called The Shire
>tfw Porrentruy
“All right all right you can take Geneva I guess”
as it was explained to me, at the time, the primary value of Switzerland was as a transit route to the south. The Gotthard tunnel was one of the few reliable routes, especially in winter. The Swiss did allow transit (unarmed!).
The purpose of the reduit was to make conquest difficult and Switzerland unusable as a transit route should the Germans try anyway.
Tldr: It was better for Germany to leave Switzerland whole than try to take it
Make sense, Valais and Alps are the most strategic place to defence because of the relief/mountains/river
I live near to the blue line, now I know why there are so many tank traps and small concrete bunkers scattered around here
In his book La Place de la Concorde Suisse, John McPhee writes in detail about the Reduits.
Hobbitland
What’s the source of that map? While it looks a bit military in style, it lacks the typical markings of a military map…
Also, it does not depict actual unit locations and defence lines from WWII, or later.
In answer to some comments I saw elsewhere, I don’t think the plan was ever to move the population into the réduit for two logical reasons: space and food availability. It would be interesting to research what the plan actually was (I guess essentially move the population away from combat operations into protected refugee-camps which would change hands as the frontlines move) because I sincerely doubt anyone envisioned a “medieval castle”-type situation.
That is, btw, the reason some question the ultimate viability of the whole réduit idea: the adversary could seize control of all the major cities, the population, most of the arable land, almost all industrial production, a very interesting east-west land-corridor, two major water-corridors and just wait for the army to run out of supplies and eventually come down their mountain.
While the propaganda-value of the réduit is unquestionable (it has achieved a mythical status and become a cornerstone of a certain idea of suissitude, to the point where international news crews still show up to talk about it when it has been officially abandoned and dismantled for over 20 years now) its tactical and strategic practicality has to be put into perspective…
It seems like a lot of people here don’t understand why this plan was the best.
This plan right there, was designed to be lost. It was designed to be the biggest pain in the arse in the entire europe. It was designed to prevent the only thing our enemy was looking for: Link Germany to Italy through the alps.
And this blue fortress right there? That was not only the best place to defend. That was *the only place*.
“BuT wHat AbOuT tHE ciTieS?!.”
We don’t give a single fuck about holding cities on the Plateau. Because *they will be lost*. And if they are not lost, *they will be encircled*. And then lost.
The point was not to hold cities for 2 weeks and be a speed bump to german Blitz Krieg like Belgium. The point was holding the alps for 3 months and be the worst neighbors imaginable, causing significant german losses.
**This is the only reason we were not invaded**. Germany knew it needed 6-8 soldiers for every swiss soldier killed. And with USSR on the right, Britain in the ass, and now Normandy’s landings, there were no way they would have chosen this manpower sacrifice just to link Germany and Italy.
Do not forget that all the roads that lead to the Réduit were defended as well. Bridges were mined. It would be a constant attrition up until the final fortress.
Utterly useless, if only they knew then that they would invite their main threat, the Germans, in years later and readily hand them key positions in the country, making them more than 1 million in the country already
More like the Reddit Line, amirite?!
The red line leading down between Geneva and Lausanne is called the Toblerone Line, and it’s still there. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toblerone_line
Of course the r/MapPorn post of this immediately diverts to Nazis and gold. Never change reddit
How interesting that the last line of defense from the Nazi’s is in primarily the German speaking parts 🤔
,
La Place de la Concorde Suisse …
Konkordiaplatz …
Sounds cynical but it would have been really interesting to see this in action. I kind of belive the reduit was just a big occupational therapy to keep the army busy. I’m not sure how the army would have held up sitting in the mountains looking down on burning villages and cities in the distance. Keeping morale high would have been nearly impossible.
My Grandpa was on the Jura line. Him and other soldiers found a German soldier deserting. They swaped uniforms, to take pictures. Then brought him in. Got reprimanded because they didn’t take his rifle.
I feel like it’s a trap from military to see what internet know
Tannenbaum plan is well known now.
After disastrous Italian campaigns in the Southern Alps, even against forces that almost already had surrendered, Germans reconsidered the difficulty of mountain assaults.
Switzerland was not France, and fighting to take te redoubt would have meant fighting men who had nothing to loose anymore (families would have been starving and dying in the plains).
It was a time when helicopters didn’t exist and large scale airdrops over extremely rugged positions against prepared defenders was suicide.
Plus don’t forget psychological aspects, Switzerland was the land of the Edelweiss and Heidi, Swiss soldiers were large part of the inspiration of Prussian war traditions. Ideal Arian looks more like an Uri farmer than the regular SS officer. And they would have spoken the same language. Ideological aspects would have been tricky.
The Reich would need to overtake Switzerland very quickly and swiftly and long term violent occupation would have extremely politically damaging.
For that I suppose they would have needed >500’000 men and gear that didn’t exist after 1942 anymore.
IMO, Redoubt was the only credible response, the atomic bomb of its day. It was very specific to Switzerland and guaranteed the country would have been left mostly alone as long as Hitler was fighting other wars elsewhere.
It almost resembles the area of the Lex Weber where people are not allowed anymore to build secondary residential house, because they overpass the quota of 20%.
Is that a coincidence? I don’t think so…