Okay, so I don’t just ask this to be the contrarian, but I do so in all seriousness…
How do prosecutors present their case in rape cases where there is no question that sexual contact took place, there is no physical proof of physical force, and the only issue is whether consent was given? What kind of proof do they typically require, and what has worked?
I think the issue starts earlier in the proceedings. Of reported rapes, only 1.6% are ever brought forward for prosecution. Improving the conviction rate is the lesser problem when 98.4% reported rapes are not pursued to court and very few rapes are reported in the first place.
In England and Wales, 50,000 guilty rapists go free every year. That’s a conservative estimate.
Tackling rape myths will help a little because Rediitors will read my comment and the statistic and think “How many of those are stranger rape with a weapon though?” as if someone violating you is better if you know them and they don’t need a knife to overpower you…..
For context (from the article)
>45% of rapes or attempted rapes of women were committed by a partner or ex-partner, and 43% were committed by someone otherwise known to the victim
and no, when you’re being raped you don’t think “at least I’ve met this guys’ parents and I know his dog’s name,, this violation of my body doesn’t count, anybody I know or whose face I vaguely recognise can fuck me at any time, whether I like it or not, that’s how life is” and yet that’s how the crime is treated.
I dont think its necessarily about myths, its just hard to prove a rape case
Without semen you have little evidence, and even with semen how do you prove beyond a reasonable doubt it wasnt consensual sex?
Rape is a disgusting crime. The fact that there are continuing arguments and defences based around consent, whilst at the same time, it is impossible for a woman to rape a man under UK law seems to create a huge disparity.
The comments on that post about women being forced into sex to avoid homelessness gives you a taste of how many men don’t think rape is rape. Take away the word and describe it as anything other than rape and they suddenly think it’s ok. I saw men talking about how they wish they could “fuck their landlords”, how “it’s her choice” to be coerced and just generally making light of the offence. Consent is not a difficult concept but it is woefully misunderstood. I’ve seen studies where men admitted to having committed rape once the act was described without that word.
Too many people think it’s only a bad or traumatising or valid rape if it’s a stranger in an alleyway
It is so hard to prove rape and sexual assault if you aren’t physically harmed. When I was in my early 20s, my friend’s roommate plied me with drugs on a night out, then when I turned down advances he waited until I was asleep, pulled me from my friend’s bed in the middle of the night, and raped me. He didn’t finish, and I was so stunned and upset that I just left and ran away, but was young and knew the case didn’t look good as I had been out and had taken a recreational drug. However, I was removed from my bed while sleeping, explicitly turned him down more than once, was crying the whole time… I wished I could report and when I really realised how bad it was years later I kicked myself for not, but it’s a scary process.
Worse still, I bumped into him years later in another country (what are the chances!!!) and he smirked at me. He either believes he didn’t do anything wrong, or revels in the fact that he did.
I wish there was more we could do to warn other women of these men.
Sexual offences already have one of the highest conviction rates by juries.
The problem is getting it to court (ie getting victims to come forward, getting the police to investigate, and getting the CPS to prosecute).
The education campaign needs to target society as a whole. If we stopped pedalling the myth that victims are disbelieved by juries, we might get more victims coming forward and more confidence by the police and CPS in bringing cases to court.
Rape convictions are so low mostly because its a crime of consent that’s so damn hard to prove. People don’t want to admit that this is the case because it means that there’s not much we can do to help the victims in most incidents, but it’s the sad reality.
Most rapes aren’t the result of a man breaking in to a womans house or dragging her in to the bushes, they’re committed by someone the woman is very close to, usually a partner. This means that the person often has had consensual sex with the victim in the past, and so the lines are even more blurred. We will simply never get convictions in most cases and in these cases there is no point pushing for a trial that may serve to only further traumatise the victim.
Jurors is not the problem, the majority of cases in court result in a conviction, it’s getting stuff to court that’s the issue. ETA: Conviction rates are around 70% for rape.
The CPS and Police can have a hard job getting enough evidence to secure a conviction. CPS decides whether to take something to court based on if there’s enough of a chance of a conviction. Particularly tricky in cases where consent was withdrawn part way through, no means no, but unless there are witnesses it becomes ‘she says’ vs ‘he says’. Then of course there’s the being intoxicated minefield.
Then of course their are false claims, even if false claims are very rare, the victim of the false accusation can have their life utterly ruined. For example the victims of Eleanor Williams, which included time in prison on remand, death threats, and having your reputation utterly ruined.
I think yes, this is a good idea but I also think you should include information about false rape claims and why people make them.
Can we start by tackling the myth that women can’t rape?
Surely the issue is to ensure that proper cases are built with officers and medics doing everything right to ensure the best chances at trial for the prosecution. If so many cases don’t end in a conviction that suggests that the cases brought aren’t good enough and more needs to be done at the investigation and legal side.
Usually when the police and the CPS think they don’t have a chance of a conviction they dont take it to trial. Is this the case here or are they just inept
I feel a major issue it “Beyond reasonable doubt” it’s very difficult when so many rapists are known to the victim, sometimes invited into the house.
If you invited a neighbour to your house for coffee and they stole something, it is difficult to prove it. They might say you gave it to me … and how many times have we given or received something in those circumstances so in a court of law there would be a doubt did you steal or was it a gift (I’m not talking money, maybe a bag, kids clothing, ornament) very difficult to prove beyond reasonable doubt.
However I’m not suggesting we lower the bar.
I was a victim 57 years ago only I didn’t know what he was doing to me!! I knew I didn’t like it as I was afraid and couldn’t move. As time passed I started to realise that he was a monster, a demon that was always constantly hurting me every time he could.
I only managed to stop him when I was approximately 3,4 or 5 years later then I was confused about what he had done to me and I was afraid to speak out for fear of not being believed, not really knowing what I was talking about, I was worried that my sister who was married to this monster would be upset and they had children together, what would happen to her. By now I was 15 years old, at the time sex was not a subject of discussion, I didn’t know how to speak to my mother about this so I kept quiet. Also my father, he died a few days before my 10th birthday.
I did confront him when I was around my late twenties because I had left my husband and was living with my two children alone.
Yes,
I was being confronted again by my brother-in-law, he was trying to have sex with me, he kept coming round and bringING me flowers, chocolates and even offered me money, now I was really well aware and I told him does my sister know you’re here, if you don’t stop coming here I will tell Kathy what you did to me!! He knew I meant it too.
I would go and visit my sister on a Friday night he was always out. I felt a great deal for my sister, I could not say anything to here, I couldn’t be the reason they split up.
As years past I found it always difficult whenever I had to be in the same room as him but he knew how I felt. When my granddaughter was born I was ecstatic and loved that girl with all my heart, she was beautiful, cleaver, and strong in herself, but as she was 9 and about to turn 10, I took a very long look at her and I decided at that age she was absolutely not able to have encouraged or said something to a man of 22 years old, or any age in that case to be responsible for having sex with her. This child was very much more worldly wise than I was at that age, so I knew without doubt I was not responsible for what happened to me at that age.
The thought of something like that happening to her was so unthinkable I was so angry with my brother in law I decided to speak to the police. I found it incredibly hard, but I felt he needed to know how very angry I was with him. I wanted the police to confront him and for him to say yes he did do that to me and I would have been happy with that, that is what I wanted but no he wouldn’t own up to it. I was not making this up, I have carried this all my life. I wanted him to apologise for what he had done!!
By now anyone who could confirm what I had said had passed away, other than his daughter, she knew something about it, but refused to tell the police the truth. We went to court and I lost my case, yes I was cross I knew he was guilty. I knew his daughter was guilty of not speaking out but, I felt so much better within myself it was like a burden had been lifted I felt free of him, I knew when he died he was going down to hell for what he had done. That was a really good feeling. I could continue with what life I had left. I still have nightmares from time to time but I Know It Was NOT MY FAULT, he is now in hell and good giddence to him. I despise liars and cheets and I am a strong person I will die happy knowing where he is. P S. He is now dead.
I mean yes, the jury system is flawed what do you expect..? You get 12 random strangers who are more often than not completely clueless about the topic of their trial and get them to determine someone’s fate – it’s like something from a dystopian movie. Source: Did jury service, genuinely terrifies me how inaccurate this process is by nature
So telling jurors how to think before a trial? Doesn’t that smell bad to you?
Ultimately in most Rape investigations the issue isn’t whether sex occurred but is the consent aspect
In a large number of investigations the suspect and victim have had consensual sex previously and a large number had consensual sex post offence
At which point you’re trying to convince a jury with no CCTV or witnesses that on a specific time Person A wasn’t consenting and that Person B knew they weren’t consenting, but Person B said in interview that they were or seemed like they were.
It’s such a difficult offence to be able to prove “beyond any reasonable doubt” because you basically have two people agreeing that yes they were in the room, yes they had sex, but differ on whether there was mutual consent, and need to convince 12 random people to side completely with one over the other
Jesus Christ this is getting dangerously out of hand.
This is something the CPS has actually picked up on since publication of this article in 2019. I spoke to a CPS RASSO prosecutors in 2020 iirc who led a workshop for prospective law students on misconceptions CPS prosecutors are trained to point out to the jury in cases. Looking forward to seeing more progress on this front.
There is a planned pilot of judge-only trials for sexual offences in Scotland. Interestingly, it has had some pushback from within the legal community. Although I guess this might be more political in nature, as the SNP are linked with it.
One of the aims, I believe, is to combat ‘rape myths’ in the minds of jurors- by removing the jury.
23 comments
[Rape is one of the most severe of all traumas, causing multiple, long-term negative outcomes](https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/38d2/cc8df92f64acb9141d6d8ef0d79d0ce2fe15.pdf).
r/stoprape
Okay, so I don’t just ask this to be the contrarian, but I do so in all seriousness…
How do prosecutors present their case in rape cases where there is no question that sexual contact took place, there is no physical proof of physical force, and the only issue is whether consent was given? What kind of proof do they typically require, and what has worked?
I think the issue starts earlier in the proceedings. Of reported rapes, only 1.6% are ever brought forward for prosecution. Improving the conviction rate is the lesser problem when 98.4% reported rapes are not pursued to court and very few rapes are reported in the first place.
In England and Wales, 50,000 guilty rapists go free every year. That’s a conservative estimate.
Tackling rape myths will help a little because Rediitors will read my comment and the statistic and think “How many of those are stranger rape with a weapon though?” as if someone violating you is better if you know them and they don’t need a knife to overpower you…..
For context (from the article)
>45% of rapes or attempted rapes of women were committed by a partner or ex-partner, and 43% were committed by someone otherwise known to the victim
and no, when you’re being raped you don’t think “at least I’ve met this guys’ parents and I know his dog’s name,, this violation of my body doesn’t count, anybody I know or whose face I vaguely recognise can fuck me at any time, whether I like it or not, that’s how life is” and yet that’s how the crime is treated.
I dont think its necessarily about myths, its just hard to prove a rape case
Without semen you have little evidence, and even with semen how do you prove beyond a reasonable doubt it wasnt consensual sex?
Rape is a disgusting crime. The fact that there are continuing arguments and defences based around consent, whilst at the same time, it is impossible for a woman to rape a man under UK law seems to create a huge disparity.
The comments on that post about women being forced into sex to avoid homelessness gives you a taste of how many men don’t think rape is rape. Take away the word and describe it as anything other than rape and they suddenly think it’s ok. I saw men talking about how they wish they could “fuck their landlords”, how “it’s her choice” to be coerced and just generally making light of the offence. Consent is not a difficult concept but it is woefully misunderstood. I’ve seen studies where men admitted to having committed rape once the act was described without that word.
Too many people think it’s only a bad or traumatising or valid rape if it’s a stranger in an alleyway
It is so hard to prove rape and sexual assault if you aren’t physically harmed. When I was in my early 20s, my friend’s roommate plied me with drugs on a night out, then when I turned down advances he waited until I was asleep, pulled me from my friend’s bed in the middle of the night, and raped me. He didn’t finish, and I was so stunned and upset that I just left and ran away, but was young and knew the case didn’t look good as I had been out and had taken a recreational drug. However, I was removed from my bed while sleeping, explicitly turned him down more than once, was crying the whole time… I wished I could report and when I really realised how bad it was years later I kicked myself for not, but it’s a scary process.
Worse still, I bumped into him years later in another country (what are the chances!!!) and he smirked at me. He either believes he didn’t do anything wrong, or revels in the fact that he did.
I wish there was more we could do to warn other women of these men.
Sexual offences already have one of the highest conviction rates by juries.
The problem is getting it to court (ie getting victims to come forward, getting the police to investigate, and getting the CPS to prosecute).
The education campaign needs to target society as a whole. If we stopped pedalling the myth that victims are disbelieved by juries, we might get more victims coming forward and more confidence by the police and CPS in bringing cases to court.
Source: https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2023/feb/juries-convict-defendants-rape-more-often-acquit
Rape convictions are so low mostly because its a crime of consent that’s so damn hard to prove. People don’t want to admit that this is the case because it means that there’s not much we can do to help the victims in most incidents, but it’s the sad reality.
Most rapes aren’t the result of a man breaking in to a womans house or dragging her in to the bushes, they’re committed by someone the woman is very close to, usually a partner. This means that the person often has had consensual sex with the victim in the past, and so the lines are even more blurred. We will simply never get convictions in most cases and in these cases there is no point pushing for a trial that may serve to only further traumatise the victim.
Jurors is not the problem, the majority of cases in court result in a conviction, it’s getting stuff to court that’s the issue. ETA: Conviction rates are around 70% for rape.
The CPS and Police can have a hard job getting enough evidence to secure a conviction. CPS decides whether to take something to court based on if there’s enough of a chance of a conviction. Particularly tricky in cases where consent was withdrawn part way through, no means no, but unless there are witnesses it becomes ‘she says’ vs ‘he says’. Then of course there’s the being intoxicated minefield.
Then of course their are false claims, even if false claims are very rare, the victim of the false accusation can have their life utterly ruined. For example the victims of Eleanor Williams, which included time in prison on remand, death threats, and having your reputation utterly ruined.
[https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jan/03/eleanor-williams-lied-grooming-gang-guilty-perverting-justice](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jan/03/eleanor-williams-lied-grooming-gang-guilty-perverting-justice)
I think yes, this is a good idea but I also think you should include information about false rape claims and why people make them.
Can we start by tackling the myth that women can’t rape?
Surely the issue is to ensure that proper cases are built with officers and medics doing everything right to ensure the best chances at trial for the prosecution. If so many cases don’t end in a conviction that suggests that the cases brought aren’t good enough and more needs to be done at the investigation and legal side.
Usually when the police and the CPS think they don’t have a chance of a conviction they dont take it to trial. Is this the case here or are they just inept
I feel a major issue it “Beyond reasonable doubt” it’s very difficult when so many rapists are known to the victim, sometimes invited into the house.
If you invited a neighbour to your house for coffee and they stole something, it is difficult to prove it. They might say you gave it to me … and how many times have we given or received something in those circumstances so in a court of law there would be a doubt did you steal or was it a gift (I’m not talking money, maybe a bag, kids clothing, ornament) very difficult to prove beyond reasonable doubt.
However I’m not suggesting we lower the bar.
I was a victim 57 years ago only I didn’t know what he was doing to me!! I knew I didn’t like it as I was afraid and couldn’t move. As time passed I started to realise that he was a monster, a demon that was always constantly hurting me every time he could.
I only managed to stop him when I was approximately 3,4 or 5 years later then I was confused about what he had done to me and I was afraid to speak out for fear of not being believed, not really knowing what I was talking about, I was worried that my sister who was married to this monster would be upset and they had children together, what would happen to her. By now I was 15 years old, at the time sex was not a subject of discussion, I didn’t know how to speak to my mother about this so I kept quiet. Also my father, he died a few days before my 10th birthday.
I did confront him when I was around my late twenties because I had left my husband and was living with my two children alone.
Yes,
I was being confronted again by my brother-in-law, he was trying to have sex with me, he kept coming round and bringING me flowers, chocolates and even offered me money, now I was really well aware and I told him does my sister know you’re here, if you don’t stop coming here I will tell Kathy what you did to me!! He knew I meant it too.
I would go and visit my sister on a Friday night he was always out. I felt a great deal for my sister, I could not say anything to here, I couldn’t be the reason they split up.
As years past I found it always difficult whenever I had to be in the same room as him but he knew how I felt. When my granddaughter was born I was ecstatic and loved that girl with all my heart, she was beautiful, cleaver, and strong in herself, but as she was 9 and about to turn 10, I took a very long look at her and I decided at that age she was absolutely not able to have encouraged or said something to a man of 22 years old, or any age in that case to be responsible for having sex with her. This child was very much more worldly wise than I was at that age, so I knew without doubt I was not responsible for what happened to me at that age.
The thought of something like that happening to her was so unthinkable I was so angry with my brother in law I decided to speak to the police. I found it incredibly hard, but I felt he needed to know how very angry I was with him. I wanted the police to confront him and for him to say yes he did do that to me and I would have been happy with that, that is what I wanted but no he wouldn’t own up to it. I was not making this up, I have carried this all my life. I wanted him to apologise for what he had done!!
By now anyone who could confirm what I had said had passed away, other than his daughter, she knew something about it, but refused to tell the police the truth. We went to court and I lost my case, yes I was cross I knew he was guilty. I knew his daughter was guilty of not speaking out but, I felt so much better within myself it was like a burden had been lifted I felt free of him, I knew when he died he was going down to hell for what he had done. That was a really good feeling. I could continue with what life I had left. I still have nightmares from time to time but I Know It Was NOT MY FAULT, he is now in hell and good giddence to him. I despise liars and cheets and I am a strong person I will die happy knowing where he is. P S. He is now dead.
I mean yes, the jury system is flawed what do you expect..? You get 12 random strangers who are more often than not completely clueless about the topic of their trial and get them to determine someone’s fate – it’s like something from a dystopian movie. Source: Did jury service, genuinely terrifies me how inaccurate this process is by nature
So telling jurors how to think before a trial? Doesn’t that smell bad to you?
Ultimately in most Rape investigations the issue isn’t whether sex occurred but is the consent aspect
In a large number of investigations the suspect and victim have had consensual sex previously and a large number had consensual sex post offence
At which point you’re trying to convince a jury with no CCTV or witnesses that on a specific time Person A wasn’t consenting and that Person B knew they weren’t consenting, but Person B said in interview that they were or seemed like they were.
It’s such a difficult offence to be able to prove “beyond any reasonable doubt” because you basically have two people agreeing that yes they were in the room, yes they had sex, but differ on whether there was mutual consent, and need to convince 12 random people to side completely with one over the other
Jesus Christ this is getting dangerously out of hand.
This is something the CPS has actually picked up on since publication of this article in 2019. I spoke to a CPS RASSO prosecutors in 2020 iirc who led a workshop for prospective law students on misconceptions CPS prosecutors are trained to point out to the jury in cases. Looking forward to seeing more progress on this front.
There is a planned pilot of judge-only trials for sexual offences in Scotland. Interestingly, it has had some pushback from within the legal community. Although I guess this might be more political in nature, as the SNP are linked with it.
One of the aims, I believe, is to combat ‘rape myths’ in the minds of jurors- by removing the jury.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/backlash-begins-snps-anti-democratic-29835309.amp
Unless I had hard evidence like cctv I wouldn’t bother reporting a rape personally
And I wouldn’t be handing my phone over either
It’s practically legal here these days so few get accepted to go to trial, and the victims get treated like criminals
Aussie here, we’re working on making active (and ongoing) consent a requirement.
https://dcj.nsw.gov.au/justice/reform-of-sexual-consent-laws.html