We were supporting Ukraine while funding Russia. What the fuck was up with that?
Dont know who did it but i still dont believe it was russia or its allies, just doesnt make sense to me. They didnt benefit from it in anyway since putin didnt use it as an excuse for full scale conscription.
[removed]
Yes, of course it wasn’t the hyperaggressive nation that has a history of attacking underwater infrastructure and making threats in that very area just before the attack.
The journalists in the program by SVT/DR/YLE/NRK mentioned in the article even ran into armed Russians. This shit is pure Russia.
Damn, that means we gotta invade them and force them to become part of NATO. Thats the only logical conclusion imho
>His presence on social media is also limited, apparently limited to VK, a Facebook clone that is popular in Ukraine and Russia.
It’s not popular in Ukraine, it was banned in 2017, and maybe Spiegel would have a clue if they stopped relying on good Russians when reporting about Ukraine.
>The most striking thing about the younger Valeri K. is that he is a follower of the openly nationalist youth organization VGO Sokil.
The most striking thing is to be a member of openly nationalist organization and to have a profile in Russian social network.
From the implied stances of those involved in the investigation this sounds pretty bad… If this turns out to be true it may turn into a big problem in the future for Ukraine, unless the involved parties manage to keep it under wraps, which seems unlikely with how much already got out. Depending on how high up the person that organized and ordered this is, it would mean a breach of trust that may not be able to be repaired anytime soon. Obviously Zelensky wasn’t informed then, but he would have been shortly afterwards, so the timeframe to plausably deny responsibility is long gone. The situation then was different, and maybe it was the right thing to do, but it still was an armed attack on vital infrastructure, and not responding harshly to something like that is simply unthinkable. So this basically puts support from Germany and NATO and EU membership at risk, all for protecting a handful of people from jail. Doesn’t seem worth it.
Stop it CIA, we know it was you.
So we let “allies” destroy infrastructure on our territories without our consent and we should act as if nothing had happened?
EU is completely submissive to foreign agents which is sad to see.
Fake news, we all know that was the Anglo-saxsons who used time machine, came to Baltic Sea, blew Nord Stream then returned back to their time.
Why do people still search ? seriously ? short-term memory ?
**Biden** : “There will be no longer a Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it”
Eh, even if true, works for me. Ukraine is in a war for its own survival. I can live with them scuppering allies – e.g. my country, the UK – in order to deal a hefty blow to Russia. Europe shouldn’t have been reliant on Russian gas in the first place.
Welcome to war, where things aren’t neat and tidy and the good guys all have clean hands.
>All the Evidence Points To Kyiv
A very assertive headline for an article with lots of padding relying on lots of “could be”.
RTL traced the Directors of the boat hire company. It’s interesting that Spiegel mention Natalie A who grew up in Kyiv but they seem to have missed the connections of Diana B which to me, tell us a lot more.
>A look at the travel company’s documents shows that there are two women at the helm. Nataliia A., who has been managing director since autumn 2021, and Diana B., who, according to the commercial register information, holds 95 percent of the shares in the company. Another travel agency in Kraków is registered with Nataliia A. This is just a front company.
What is interesting, however, is what you find out about Diana B. **The excerpts from the commercial register for “Feeria Lwowa” give an address in Kerch, a city in Crimea that has been occupied by Russia since 2014. An excerpt from the passport document, which RTL and ntv have exclusively, confirms that Diana B. is registered at this address. But even more explosive: She has a Russian passport.** Diana B. is originally from Uzbekistan and moved to Kerch with her family in 2001. She may never have had a Ukrainian passport, since Ukraine does not allow for dual citizenship.
From a NTV article about an RTL investigation into the incident.
All it’s missing is Xi getting a bj from Putin and we have the next James Bond movie.
“How can we better protect ourselves.” Decentralize your grid, it’s obvious, but that involves investment and makes a scarcity model of business harder to control. (The real issue).
Actually always thought it was either Ukraine or Poland in action here as those were the most to gain from it. In the case of Ukraine I am not even mad
– There is “little doubt” that it was Ukraine. This is coming from newspapers that have been very pro Ukraine. If you now turn around and say this is “propaganda”, you are willing to erode trust in western institutions for the benefit of Ukraine. We can extrapolate this also from the fact how quiet the German government is about the topic, its a political nightmare for them.
– This is unprecedented, as far as I am aware this has not happened to Germany while it has been at peace. People in this sub always talk about “What signal does it send to Russia if we let them to X”, well what signal does it send when we let a country bomb infrastructure with possibly the weapons we send them?
– Ukraine’s leadership has shown their authoritarian tendencies and their easily confrontational behaviour. They have non stop insulted Germany throughout the war, they clearly have such a massive disdain and disrespect for Germany that they would then also go as far as bombing its infrastructure, all while being at the mercy of western powers.
– You can not hope to be a geopolitical power if countries don’t respect you and Ukraine does not respect Germany’s authority, as seen from the cases above. This just further undermines Germany’s authority, nobody is gonna respect the country that paid for the bombing of its own infrastructure.
– Ukraine’s leadership will never admit it. They refused to admit that their S-300 rocket landed in Poland when they were told “Its no problem, we know it was an accident”, there was nothing but pride at stake, here there is a lot at stake.
Enemy of an enemy, can still be an enemy. A country that attacks another one, needs to be treated as such. If they behave like this during an allegedly existential war where they need Germany’s help, what will they do if they don’t get their way after the war is over?
If you want to know what real geopolitical power looks like, then think about what would happen if this piece of infrastructure was American. it wouldn’t even happen in the first place, they would be too terrified to try.
It’s the Spiegel…………….
I wouldn’t wonder if it was a some extremist group (even inside of the military) from Ukraine, but I can’t for a second believe that the legitimate government, Zelensky and his group would have approved this. Or even heard a suggestion about it. The risks for it go politically so wrong is way too big for a “temporary” stunt, considering that Ukraine’s very existence was at the stake of Western supply of weapons, funds and intelligence.
For an independent extremist group who can only think of so little, as the pipe only being a source of funds for Russia, I can definitely believe them to have done it.
But as someone also mentions in this thread, one of the other members in the investigation was from Crimea, with a Russian passport, so it could very well just be a infiltrated asset of Russia. That was one of the biggest weakness Ukraine had at the start of the this full scale war, that many “moles” came out of hiding by aiding the Russians actively. This could very well be a case of that too…
Kyiv would never risk antagonizing Germany, Europe’s biggest economy, with such a rash action. International relations are Kyiv’s primary strategic interest.
It is interesting this comes out now, when Russia is pushing narrative of Ukraine’s offensive failing and the conflict being frozen. Fascinating timing.
Well, Der Spiegel. As usually, the headline sounds clear. The article is a vague summary and full of assumptions.
I wish Scholz just told the world he blew the shitty pipeline himself because his party, the SPD, aided Moscow-Nazimafia long enough and was still trying keep germany hooked on gas from Russia, despite Mafia-Nazis attacking ukraine since 2014.
>Still others claim that such theories are extremely convenient for the Russians because they distract from the fact that they themselves are the perpetrators. As evidence of this, Russian ship movements in the Baltic Sea, reconstructed by journalists from the public broadcasters of Denmark (DR), Sweden (SVT), Finland (Yle) and Norway (NRK), are frequently cited.
>On the night of September 21-22, for example, the Danish Navy encountered a conspicuous number of Russian ships east of Bornholm in exactly the area of the later blasts. The automatic identification systems on the boats had been turned off and they were traveling as unidentifiable “dark ships.”
>The 86-meter-long Sibiryakov, a hydrographic research vessel equipped for underwater operations, was also in the area. According to experts, it often accompanies Russian submarines on their secret test dives in the Baltic Sea. Some micro-submarines also have grabber arms that can be used to perform underwater work. Tasks like placing explosive charges.
>But why would the Russians blow up their own pipeline? Especially given that they could simply block it at the push of a button? Why deprive yourself of a lever that still might be useful – at least a few years down the road – to resume blackmailing a Germany that is starving for cheap energy?
>It’s possible to find reasons, but they are all rather convoluted. One theory holds that Moscow wanted to save itself billions in damages after it violated its own contracts by cutting off promised Nord Stream gas supplies to Germany. If, on the other hand, the pipeline had been blown up by unknown persons, it would be considered a force majeure.
So the fact that the Danes detected a Russian vessel designed for this kind of work is somehow pure convenience and doesn’t make sense, but what makes sense is the conspiracy level threading of some fucking shitty yacht with octogen residue in the toilet?
Am I being trolled by this bullcrap?
Not sure if they wanted that click bate title for sensationalism. They mention Russia had ships near there and someone in the US thought it was the US. They didn’t mention all the known info about who was in those waters and instead seem to quickly focus in on Ukraine and one ship. They say Russian and US had more reason to do it, blah blah. I see this more of a highschooler’s project than paid professionals.
It can point to Santa, it will have the same value. It’s an effect of the Russian invasion of another country.
Who even cares.
Europe is now no longer dependent on Russia.
If it really was Ukraine it was an incredibly stupid move. At the time the pipeline was blown it had already been cancelled by Germany. No gas was flowing through that pipeline so why blow it up in September? All the parties in power at that moment were pro Kyiv and would have never opened the pipeline again. Why risk this lucky constellation.
Progress on the frontline = increase in anti-Ukraine propaganda
Good 👍
It was either Russia or USA. Russia had one of their ship pass by couple days before explosion.
I dont see Ukraine being able to do it. Just look at world map, look at situation they were at the time.
Now, Ive seen mainly german media seriously speculate if it was actually Ukraine. If it were up to just Germany what EU would do, I am sure they would happily go back to buying oil from Russia and be best buddies. Even if they are doing fine, they are hurting most from hole they have dig themselves into by trusting dictatorship.
Wow, let’s sort this thread by controversial, shall we?
So Ukraine attacked Germany and EU interests ?
Nah, USA did plain and simple as Biden said USA would.
All the evidence points to “Russia trying to pin this on” Kyiv.
Filled in the missing parts and fixed the bot-generated capital letters issues.
Who cares. They done us a favor getting rid of Russian gas faster.
Der Spiegel is losing lawsuit after lawsuit currently due to bad journalism in case of Rammstein. While I won’t dismiss Kyiv being behind the pipeline attacks, I won’t take Der Spiegel as a reliable source. Not to mention, Ukraine has so much to lose if discovered they did it.
38 comments
Ill say either Ukraine or USA.
It was for the best, whoever did it.
We were supporting Ukraine while funding Russia. What the fuck was up with that?
Dont know who did it but i still dont believe it was russia or its allies, just doesnt make sense to me. They didnt benefit from it in anyway since putin didnt use it as an excuse for full scale conscription.
[removed]
Yes, of course it wasn’t the hyperaggressive nation that has a history of attacking underwater infrastructure and making threats in that very area just before the attack.
The journalists in the program by SVT/DR/YLE/NRK mentioned in the article even ran into armed Russians. This shit is pure Russia.
Damn, that means we gotta invade them and force them to become part of NATO. Thats the only logical conclusion imho
>His presence on social media is also limited, apparently limited to VK, a Facebook clone that is popular in Ukraine and Russia.
It’s not popular in Ukraine, it was banned in 2017, and maybe Spiegel would have a clue if they stopped relying on good Russians when reporting about Ukraine.
>The most striking thing about the younger Valeri K. is that he is a follower of the openly nationalist youth organization VGO Sokil.
The most striking thing is to be a member of openly nationalist organization and to have a profile in Russian social network.
From the implied stances of those involved in the investigation this sounds pretty bad… If this turns out to be true it may turn into a big problem in the future for Ukraine, unless the involved parties manage to keep it under wraps, which seems unlikely with how much already got out. Depending on how high up the person that organized and ordered this is, it would mean a breach of trust that may not be able to be repaired anytime soon. Obviously Zelensky wasn’t informed then, but he would have been shortly afterwards, so the timeframe to plausably deny responsibility is long gone. The situation then was different, and maybe it was the right thing to do, but it still was an armed attack on vital infrastructure, and not responding harshly to something like that is simply unthinkable. So this basically puts support from Germany and NATO and EU membership at risk, all for protecting a handful of people from jail. Doesn’t seem worth it.
Stop it CIA, we know it was you.
So we let “allies” destroy infrastructure on our territories without our consent and we should act as if nothing had happened?
EU is completely submissive to foreign agents which is sad to see.
Fake news, we all know that was the Anglo-saxsons who used time machine, came to Baltic Sea, blew Nord Stream then returned back to their time.
Why do people still search ? seriously ? short-term memory ?
**Biden** : “There will be no longer a Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it”
**source :** [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OS4O8rGRLf8&t=85s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OS4O8rGRLf8&t=85s)
​
loling at troll bot army downvoting sourced facts
Eh, even if true, works for me. Ukraine is in a war for its own survival. I can live with them scuppering allies – e.g. my country, the UK – in order to deal a hefty blow to Russia. Europe shouldn’t have been reliant on Russian gas in the first place.
Welcome to war, where things aren’t neat and tidy and the good guys all have clean hands.
>All the Evidence Points To Kyiv
A very assertive headline for an article with lots of padding relying on lots of “could be”.
RTL traced the Directors of the boat hire company. It’s interesting that Spiegel mention Natalie A who grew up in Kyiv but they seem to have missed the connections of Diana B which to me, tell us a lot more.
>A look at the travel company’s documents shows that there are two women at the helm. Nataliia A., who has been managing director since autumn 2021, and Diana B., who, according to the commercial register information, holds 95 percent of the shares in the company. Another travel agency in Kraków is registered with Nataliia A. This is just a front company.
What is interesting, however, is what you find out about Diana B. **The excerpts from the commercial register for “Feeria Lwowa” give an address in Kerch, a city in Crimea that has been occupied by Russia since 2014. An excerpt from the passport document, which RTL and ntv have exclusively, confirms that Diana B. is registered at this address. But even more explosive: She has a Russian passport.** Diana B. is originally from Uzbekistan and moved to Kerch with her family in 2001. She may never have had a Ukrainian passport, since Ukraine does not allow for dual citizenship.
From a NTV article about an RTL investigation into the incident.
https://www-n–tv-de.translate.goog/politik/Nord-Stream-Sprengung-Die-Spur-fuehrt-nach-Moskau-article24250566.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp
All it’s missing is Xi getting a bj from Putin and we have the next James Bond movie.
“How can we better protect ourselves.” Decentralize your grid, it’s obvious, but that involves investment and makes a scarcity model of business harder to control. (The real issue).
Actually always thought it was either Ukraine or Poland in action here as those were the most to gain from it. In the case of Ukraine I am not even mad
[More like “All the Evidence Points To Kyiv if we only mention the evidence that points to Kyiv”.](https://twitter.com/OAlexanderDK/status/1695360997244957005)
Lets summarize all the articles:
– There is “little doubt” that it was Ukraine. This is coming from newspapers that have been very pro Ukraine. If you now turn around and say this is “propaganda”, you are willing to erode trust in western institutions for the benefit of Ukraine. We can extrapolate this also from the fact how quiet the German government is about the topic, its a political nightmare for them.
– This is unprecedented, as far as I am aware this has not happened to Germany while it has been at peace. People in this sub always talk about “What signal does it send to Russia if we let them to X”, well what signal does it send when we let a country bomb infrastructure with possibly the weapons we send them?
– Ukraine’s leadership has shown their authoritarian tendencies and their easily confrontational behaviour. They have non stop insulted Germany throughout the war, they clearly have such a massive disdain and disrespect for Germany that they would then also go as far as bombing its infrastructure, all while being at the mercy of western powers.
– You can not hope to be a geopolitical power if countries don’t respect you and Ukraine does not respect Germany’s authority, as seen from the cases above. This just further undermines Germany’s authority, nobody is gonna respect the country that paid for the bombing of its own infrastructure.
– Ukraine’s leadership will never admit it. They refused to admit that their S-300 rocket landed in Poland when they were told “Its no problem, we know it was an accident”, there was nothing but pride at stake, here there is a lot at stake.
Enemy of an enemy, can still be an enemy. A country that attacks another one, needs to be treated as such. If they behave like this during an allegedly existential war where they need Germany’s help, what will they do if they don’t get their way after the war is over?
If you want to know what real geopolitical power looks like, then think about what would happen if this piece of infrastructure was American. it wouldn’t even happen in the first place, they would be too terrified to try.
It’s the Spiegel…………….
I wouldn’t wonder if it was a some extremist group (even inside of the military) from Ukraine, but I can’t for a second believe that the legitimate government, Zelensky and his group would have approved this. Or even heard a suggestion about it. The risks for it go politically so wrong is way too big for a “temporary” stunt, considering that Ukraine’s very existence was at the stake of Western supply of weapons, funds and intelligence.
For an independent extremist group who can only think of so little, as the pipe only being a source of funds for Russia, I can definitely believe them to have done it.
But as someone also mentions in this thread, one of the other members in the investigation was from Crimea, with a Russian passport, so it could very well just be a infiltrated asset of Russia. That was one of the biggest weakness Ukraine had at the start of the this full scale war, that many “moles” came out of hiding by aiding the Russians actively. This could very well be a case of that too…
Kyiv would never risk antagonizing Germany, Europe’s biggest economy, with such a rash action. International relations are Kyiv’s primary strategic interest.
It is interesting this comes out now, when Russia is pushing narrative of Ukraine’s offensive failing and the conflict being frozen. Fascinating timing.
Well, Der Spiegel. As usually, the headline sounds clear. The article is a vague summary and full of assumptions.
I wish Scholz just told the world he blew the shitty pipeline himself because his party, the SPD, aided Moscow-Nazimafia long enough and was still trying keep germany hooked on gas from Russia, despite Mafia-Nazis attacking ukraine since 2014.
>Still others claim that such theories are extremely convenient for the Russians because they distract from the fact that they themselves are the perpetrators. As evidence of this, Russian ship movements in the Baltic Sea, reconstructed by journalists from the public broadcasters of Denmark (DR), Sweden (SVT), Finland (Yle) and Norway (NRK), are frequently cited.
>On the night of September 21-22, for example, the Danish Navy encountered a conspicuous number of Russian ships east of Bornholm in exactly the area of the later blasts. The automatic identification systems on the boats had been turned off and they were traveling as unidentifiable “dark ships.”
>The 86-meter-long Sibiryakov, a hydrographic research vessel equipped for underwater operations, was also in the area. According to experts, it often accompanies Russian submarines on their secret test dives in the Baltic Sea. Some micro-submarines also have grabber arms that can be used to perform underwater work. Tasks like placing explosive charges.
>But why would the Russians blow up their own pipeline? Especially given that they could simply block it at the push of a button? Why deprive yourself of a lever that still might be useful – at least a few years down the road – to resume blackmailing a Germany that is starving for cheap energy?
>It’s possible to find reasons, but they are all rather convoluted. One theory holds that Moscow wanted to save itself billions in damages after it violated its own contracts by cutting off promised Nord Stream gas supplies to Germany. If, on the other hand, the pipeline had been blown up by unknown persons, it would be considered a force majeure.
So the fact that the Danes detected a Russian vessel designed for this kind of work is somehow pure convenience and doesn’t make sense, but what makes sense is the conspiracy level threading of some fucking shitty yacht with octogen residue in the toilet?
Am I being trolled by this bullcrap?
Not sure if they wanted that click bate title for sensationalism. They mention Russia had ships near there and someone in the US thought it was the US. They didn’t mention all the known info about who was in those waters and instead seem to quickly focus in on Ukraine and one ship. They say Russian and US had more reason to do it, blah blah. I see this more of a highschooler’s project than paid professionals.
It can point to Santa, it will have the same value. It’s an effect of the Russian invasion of another country.
Who even cares.
Europe is now no longer dependent on Russia.
If it really was Ukraine it was an incredibly stupid move. At the time the pipeline was blown it had already been cancelled by Germany. No gas was flowing through that pipeline so why blow it up in September? All the parties in power at that moment were pro Kyiv and would have never opened the pipeline again. Why risk this lucky constellation.
Progress on the frontline = increase in anti-Ukraine propaganda
Good 👍
It was either Russia or USA. Russia had one of their ship pass by couple days before explosion.
I dont see Ukraine being able to do it. Just look at world map, look at situation they were at the time.
Now, Ive seen mainly german media seriously speculate if it was actually Ukraine. If it were up to just Germany what EU would do, I am sure they would happily go back to buying oil from Russia and be best buddies. Even if they are doing fine, they are hurting most from hole they have dig themselves into by trusting dictatorship.
Wow, let’s sort this thread by controversial, shall we?
So Ukraine attacked Germany and EU interests ?
Nah, USA did plain and simple as Biden said USA would.
All the evidence points to “Russia trying to pin this on” Kyiv.
Filled in the missing parts and fixed the bot-generated capital letters issues.
Who cares. They done us a favor getting rid of Russian gas faster.
Der Spiegel is losing lawsuit after lawsuit currently due to bad journalism in case of Rammstein. While I won’t dismiss Kyiv being behind the pipeline attacks, I won’t take Der Spiegel as a reliable source. Not to mention, Ukraine has so much to lose if discovered they did it.