Difference in Ukraine/Russia and Israel/Palestine conflicts?

30 comments

1. It’s a completely different situation to what is going on between Russia and Ukraine. Completely different.

   Honestly I can’t really be bothered to write a super long wall of text trying to explain everything properly. Because it really would take a wall of text. I implore you to do further research though. The roots of this conflict date much further back than 1948. This region is the historical home of the Jews. It wasn’t just made up out of thin air. Also there was no “occupation” prior to the first Arab-Israeli war. There has never actually been a Palestinian state. Ever. That war was about the total destruction of the state of Israel as are most of the other wars that have been fought between various Arab coalitions and Israel.

   It’s extremely complicated. It isn’t anything close to as black and white as Russia-Ukraine. At its base, it’s a religious conflict. Which the Russian-Ukraine war is not.

2. Off-topic, but research a bit more then share on a different sub.

   -Before Israel there was a British mandate, not a Palestinian state.

   -Before the British Mandate, there was the Ottoman Empire, not a Palestinian state.

   -Before the Ottoman Empire, there was the Islamic state of the Mamluks of Egypt, not a Palestinian state.

   -Before the Islamic state of the Mamluks of Egypt, there was the Ayubid Empire, not a Palestinian state. Godfrey IV of Boulogne, known as Godfrey de Bouillon, conqueror of Jerusalem in 1099

   -Before the Ayubid Empire, there was the Frankish and Christian Kingdom of Jerusalem, not a Palestinian state.

   -Before the Kingdom of Jerusalem, there was the Umayyad and Fatimid empires, not a Palestinian state.

   -Before the Umayyad and Fatimid empires, there was the Byzantine empire, not a Palestinian state.

   -Before the Byzantine Empire, there were the Sassanids, not a Palestinian state.

   -Before the Sassanid Empire, there was the Byzantine Empire, not a Palestinian state.

   -Before the Byzantine Empire, there was the Roman Empire, not a Palestinian state.

   -Before the Roman Empire, there was the Hasmonean state, not a Palestinian state.

   -Before the Hasmonean state, there was the Seleucid, not a Palestinian state.

   -Before the Seleucid empire, there was the empire of Alexander the Great, not a Palestinian state.

   -Before the empire of Alexander the Great, there was the Persian empire, not a Palestinian state.

   -Before the Persian Empire, there was the Babylonian Empire, not a Palestinian state.

   -Before the Babylonian Empire, there were the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah, not a Palestinian state.

   -Before the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah, there was the Kingdom of Israel, not a Palestinian state.

   -Before the kingdom of Israel, there was the theocracy of the twelve tribes of Israel, not a Palestinian state.

   -Before the theocracy of the twelve tribes of Israel, there was an agglomeration of independent Canaanite city-kingdoms, not a Palestinian statehood.

   Actually, in this piece of land there has been everything, EXCEPT A PALESTINIAN STATE

   The closest to a Palestinian state (other than Jordan) is Gaza, which hasn’t been occupied for almost 20 years by anyone but Hamas, has received insane amounts of funding, and invested most of it into rockets and other weapons.

3. Maybe Israel should give up some of their territory for peace.

4. Palestine was a sparsely populated, backwater region of mixed ethnicities including Armenians, Greeks, Arab Christian’s, Arab Muslims, Druze and Jews. In the late 1800s it saw an influx of mostly Jewish migrants and also a rise in population of the local communities as water and sanitation improved. This lead to urban migration as there wasn’t enough land for subsistence farmers and their offspring. The rise in population and the collapse of the Ottoman Empire created conflicts between communities as well as the trend towards various nationalist movements as seen in Europe. This continued after the Ottoman Empire collapsed and the British established the mandate. The collapse of the ottomans saw huge displacements and refugees among Greeks, Turks and Armenians as well as Arabs and Jews.

   The end result was the modern map we have today. This was an incredibly complicated time and it isn’t as simple as to say Palestinians were here first and got invaded. The concept of a Palestinian identity that is separate from an Arab identity is a modern thing that really traces itself back to the birth of Israel and the refugee crisis from the first Arab-Israeli war, and the experiences of being under Arab (Jordan/Egypt) occupation and then under Israeli occupation post 1967.

   This is a very complicated geopolitical conflict and it full of lots of nuances and factions. The tendency on the internet is to oversimplify things and pick one side as good and the other as evil.

5. Better ask for similarities

6. One of the big differences is that Ukraine goes out of it’s way to not harm non-combatants while Hamas goes out of it’s way to harm civilians as much as possible.

7. Your research? That stuff is on the Internet. No research needed. What you should have discovered though is that they fought on the wrong side during the world wars. As a german I can assure you that its for the better that germany and their allies lost.

   And when you loose a war its very likely, that you dont own the land anymore. Thats what war does.
   The Britains have won and gave that land to Israel. Its theirs. War was over. Also for those claims who was there first: it was allready jewish land before Islam even existed.

   And since the very first day Israel existed, the arabs tried to invade it and cried afterwards that they lost. The sheer existence of Palestine is due to Israels mercy.

   I mean you can punch my face once and ill maybe wont punch back, but if you do it a 2nd, a 3rd, a 4th and so on time, I will fucking obliterate you.

   Especially if your country is based on shitty sharia laws to avoid becoming actually civilized. Speaking of people saying they don’t behave like you should in islam. Here a quote,
   Sahih Muslim 2922:The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.

   Yes Its fucked up for the civilians, but hamas uses that. They play the victims. You often see how israeli soldiers kick on the head of a Palestinian boy but those goat fuckers dont show you how that shithead tried to stab said soldier with a 10 inch blade prior.

   I mean what should they do? Let themselves get bombed to death? Wars change borders. People who where alive to witness peace after war should do everything in their power to keep the peace. Hamas, Lebanon, Iran, Hisbola won’t and will sacrifice their people that’s why their leaders deserve to die.

   For Russia? No that’s not compareable. There was peace until that shithead Putin grabbed the crimean peninsula. They started a war. Just like the arabs.

8. Alos, israel wanned to be recognized as a coutry and Palestine wanned some land Everyone got what they wanned separately. And then Arabic countries around felt like its another “europian” plan to conquer so they encourage the war.

9. The differences are so great that any kind of direct comparison makes no sense. There are completely different histories, geopolitical dependencies, the size of the two nations are deeply diffferent, the scale and type of conflict.

   There’s no compelling reason to make a direction analogy between the two conflicts.

   It’s like troubles in Northern Ireland being likened to the Israel/Palestine conflict. There may be some very superficial similarities, but they obscure the deeper differences.

10. Israel is fighting Hamas not Palestinians

11. Genocide is ok in one situation, says the world.

12. Europeans felt horrible for all the atrocities committed against them in Europe so they wanted to make it up to them by giving them a country, and Jewish people had origins in the middle east and that’s why Palestine was chosen.
    They continue to support Israel mainly because it’s more or less a European country. Many people in Israel had origins from Europe. Also Israel is a democracy, so that’s one more reason they support them.

13. Melanin and religion. It’s that simple.

14. They are very different situations.

    Isreal has a large section of its population, Zionist settlers, that believe their God gave them Israel and taking it by force is justified. They have been unsuccessful with the genocide they need to achieve their goal of a fully Jewish state. Until they eliminate the Palestinians or accept non Jews as equals the atrocities on both sides will continue.

    Secondly there seems to be a Russian-Iran-Hamas coordination for this particular flare up.

    Generally if you don’t want a long running civil war the forces in power need to accommodate those who are oppressed. The current Isreali regime benefits from having a bloody shirt to keep liberal support.

15. Israelites are indigenous to Palestine, Jerusalem has always been shared among many mesopotamian tribes under greek successor kingdoms, romans, Byzantines and crusader kingdoms.Israelites that had been exiled all over the world were invited to settle in Palestine by Ottomans, when WW1 ended and the Ottoman empire crumbled is when Palestine came under British mandate.

    Israel declared it’s independence in 1946 and Palestine requested independence in 1988 after which Israel pulled back to internationally recognized border that we see today.

    However Palestine strife and inner conflict as well as appartheid policies from Israel made it difficult for them to establish an actual state, closest you have to a Palestinian government is the PLO in the West Bank and they are not at war with Israel.

16. Russia attacked Ukraine without a just cause.

    Palestinian people attacked Israel without a just cause.

    There is no Palestine and the people of Gaza, in general, support and aid Hamas. This doesn’t apply to the people of the west bank.

    So you have Gaza attacking Israel. That’s it. There is no need to further separate the situation or try to make it more complex. Thousands of people didn’t just secretly organise this attack amongst millions of unsuspecting innocents. They’re all guilty to some degree. This is the only sane way to summarize it and base a response on. That’s why Israel now is bombing strategic sites, locking down the enclave, and soon invading for what might be an eternity.

17. OP some more background reading from the Arab perspective. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/9/whats-the-israel-palestine-conflict-about-a-simple-guide

18. Call me up when Ukrainians raid Russian villages Viking-style with the goal of raping and murdering as many civilians as possible while happily filming their acts of degeneracy and screaming “God is great”. Also, Ukrainians didn’t elect a government that has the explicit goal of eradicating Russia and its people.

19. It’s ridiculous that people try and compare 2 completely different situations. It’s also ridiculous that people who compare themselves to Ukrainians cheer on russia and putin. That’s how alike they really are.

20. It’s a complicated situation where I don’t want to get involved, from my point of view Israel should just absorb everything, including the Palestinian people, but I don’t really know shit about the situation, the HAMAS attack, from my point of view, again, from someone who knows very little about the situation, justifies the reaction Israel is having.

21. https://preview.redd.it/otyds33bmetb1.jpeg?width=770&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a9e89561178ceca69657396a338210175b64e285

    I see similarities, a foreign country decides to take a land that has already a country on it.

    This has been the worst deal ever made , send people with no land to a place and then we will figure out later.

22. Well said, fully agree

23. Sure. Israel has been there for long enough to raise generations of families, you can’t just remove them now. And Palestine continues to allow and encourage terrorists who don’t give a damn about them to attack Israel.

    Now, Israel is absolutely creating the conditions for Hamas to thrive, too, probably deliberately for an endless supply of casus belli. And palestine, too has raised families, and doesn’t deserve to be ejected either.

    In the end, everyone involved sucks for different reasons.

    Compare to Ukraine, which was essentially just trying to be independent minding its own business when Russia decided to rebuild the soviet union and take it back. It’s imperialism in a new age;

    Whereas the israel-palestine conflict is uh, just another dipshit ethno-religious war.

    In the end, I don’t want to help either, and I would like more US aid to leave israel and go to Ukraine. This however, is probably going to encourage israel to finish wiping out Palestine and complete a *sane* set of borders, because the current situation is untenable.

    I blame the british.

    And now, at this point…
    I just would like the job finished. Massive amounts of european aid to resettle palestinians humanely and with compensation for their land. No more conquest, just finish a reasonable shape for the state of Israel.

    Why Israel? Because Palestine relies on Iran and Russia’s support and that doesn’t usually bode well for the formation of a democracy.

24. Palestinians are trying to take theirs lands back, like we are doing with orgs ruzzia.

25. Other than the war hawk (chicken hawk) politicians, the US people don’t support the war in Ukraine. It takes a constant barrage of propaganda to keep us interested in killing strangers for a grift. Cherry picking history is disingenuous.

26. > My research has shown that Jewish people settled/occupied Palestine against the desires of Palestinians several decades ago under support of the British.

    Jewish Palestinians organized under organizations like Haganah fought a 28-year war of independence against the British from 1920 to 1948. At the time they simply referred to the area as Israel in Hebrew – your research should show you coinage and documents as such. They weren’t foreigners or settlers. Many of their Arab fellow Palestinians chose not to accept that the Jewish sovereign polity was there to stay, much like the Russian position on Ukraine. The difference is that in this case, the analogous Russians have been losing for 70 years and are crying oppression.

27. Short answer, Israel buys US Republicans.

28. An excellent synopsis in my view. What a mess was made creating a home for displaced Jewish people on non virgin territory. Such a sad legacy of a post war quick solution. To be anti – Palestinian is utterly unconscionable in my opinion. A fellow supporter (in words only to my chagrin) Ukraine supporter.

29. Your reading is wrong….there was no Palestinian identy there were Arabs, some of whom opposed Jewish immigration, some of whom didn’t mind, but it’s a different situation from UKR. From 1949 to 1967 there wasn’t a Palestine in the West Bank – it was annexed to Jordan, and Gaza was occupied by Egypt. There is no getting *back* Palestine as it didn’t exist as you make out.

30. There is quite a lot of false simplicity and actually some BS here….stick to the UKR conflict; if you’re interested in the Levant then speak to some people, learn even basic history like who controlled what land and when (Turkey, Britain, Jordan etc) and check yourself