Its easy to be the morality police when you sit thousands of kilometers away from the conflict.
The people who claim Israel needs to stop what theyre doing usually have no alternative suggestions to help Israel defend its people other than waiting until the next big hamas attack.
Unfortunately war happens when there are no other good solutions. This is no exception and its a shame this is what it has come to
Norway saying what many are, at present, reluctant to say. This kind of sentiment is going to snowball soon if Israel persists in following a policy that results in enormous numbers of deaths and casualties of non-combatants…
“Israel has the right to defend itself, and I recognize that it is very difficult to defend against attacks from an area as densely populated as Gaza,” Store says.
“Rockets are still being fired from Gaza into Israel, and we condemn this,” he adds.
Yes, but you are not asking Hamas to stop firing those rockets, nor giving any solution to returning the hostages.
Well yeah they aren’t raping women and then parading them through the streets. So I guess that’s not proportionate.
Israel firing missiles to assassinate Hamas terrorists = Not good
Israel wants to invade Gaza to assassinate Hamas terrorists = Not good
What are your solutions then? Do nothing? Let them win after they maimed people while still alive?
Norway can fuck off seriously
It’s war. They must respond in a way that can totally eradicate Hamas, a designated terrorist group by the EU.
Whether that response is proportionate or not is an irrelevant question.
[removed]
All of this self righteousness would evaporate in an instant if Norway was invaded by genocidal Jihadists
In other words, Norway recognizes Israel’s right to defend itself… without actually defending itself.
So should we rape and behead more people? What would be appropriate? Or a better question, what does proportion have to do with anything? This war is about security not proportionality…
Until someone can propose a working solution that isn’t “do nothing and wait for Hamas to strike again” their opinion can be discarded
It clearly is and Israel is obviously engaged in collective punishment. I wonder how high the civilian death toll will have to be for us to clearly condemn Israel. Since it’s going to get higher and higher.
Another politician from the west with a condescending attitude while offering no solutions.
Many politicians started to criticize Israel without giving a viable option on how to end the conflict in the region.
Good for Norway. More countries need to stick up for human rights and international law.
Ireland can’t shoulder the burden alone.
Proportional response means that when you have two paths to acheive a military goal, you choose the path that leads to the fewest suffering possible. It does not mean “Do to your enemies about the same that they did to you” thats a misconception.
Hamas still has 90%+ of its fighters and tens of thousanda of rockets. Hamas still has 230 hostages. Hamas is still a threat of comitting another 7th October massacre.
If anything, Israel has a right to be doing a lot more.
So what would be “proportional”? IDF raiding Gaza and raping/killing the exact same number of civilians as were murdered in Israel on the 7th of October?
There’s no such thing as a proportions. Terrorists should be dealt with and period.
Big Norway Win
God .Please stop the wars.
Reminder: Hamas is regularly indiscriminately firing rockets into Israel for the 4th week now. What is a proportionate response?
* I am a sane, rational person, and I accept that what Hamas did in/to Israel was atrocious, and gives Israel the right – even the duty and obligation – to do something about it
* Given it was a military attack by Hamas, I can accept that “doing something about it” means a military response.
* But, Hamas is holed-up in Gaza, and unlike in a conventional military scenario Hamas won’t come out onto an open battlefield to confront Israel.
Therefore, one way to “force” Hamas to eventually come out of hiding could be for Israel to apply the military technique of a siege (a classic military technique which has been used for thousands of years by armies all over the world).
* But Gaza is an urban, densely populated civilian area.
* Thus, any siege of Gaza, by definition, will cause civilians to suffer and put civilian life at risk. This is a war crime.
* So, Israel can’t lay siege to Gaza to force Hamas out, and if Hamas won’t come out of Gaza on its own accord, the only military option that remains is for Israel to take the fight to Hamas, in Gaza itself.
* This means bombing of Gaza, and eventually fighting on the ground in Gaza.
* But Gaza is an urban, densely populated civilian area.
* Thus, any bombing of Gaza or fighting in Gaza, by definition, will cause Palestinian civilians to suffer and put civilian life at risk. This is a war crime.
* Ergo, the only way to bomb Gaza / fight Hamas in Gaza and not commit a war crime would be to not have civilians present during the fight.
* So, the civilian population needs to evacuate from the area of battle.
* But that means lots of innocent people will become refugees and have to leave their homes. This is a war crime [collective punishment, ethnic cleansing, or attempted genocide – take your pick, but it doesn’t matter which you choose really, because they are all war crimes]
* Ergo, the only way to not commit a war crime is for the civilians of Gaza to stay put
* But, if the civilians of Gaza stay put, fighting on the ground in Gaza cannot take place, bombing of Gaza cannot take place, and a siege of Gaza is not possible.
* But Hamas is holed-up in Gaza, and won’t come out to fight “fair and square.”
* And I am a sane, rational person who accepts that what Hamas did in/to Israel was atrocious, and Israel has the right – even the duty and obligation – to do something about it
If you pull the tail of a tiger, be ready to pay for the consequences. I am really sad for the Palestinian victims (as I am for the Israeli ones) but the ones who scarified them are not the Israelis but Hamas. They most certainly knew the retribution for their crime would be terrible, they knew many innocents would have to pay for it, it didn’t stop them, the leader are safe, away from all that and are not bothered by the civilian victims, they use them to stigmatise Israel and sadly enough, in many occasion it works.
So, what would be a proportionate response? Just wondering. Staying put, letting Hamas fire more rockets, commit another massacre?
I think some people forget that besides the already killed people of Israel, Hamas also took over 200 hostages. What is Israel meant to do? Consider them acceptable casualties? I frankly think Israel actually showed restraint.
Thanks Norway. Ring me up with that advice of yours when your Scandinavian tranquility is being disturbed by a terrorist organisation with expressed goal of the eradication of all Norwegians on the planet. Let’s see how proportionate your reaction is to individuals going around beheading children and burning them alive and declaring to never ever stop that.
>“International law stipulates that [the reaction] must be proportionate. Civilians must be taken into account, and humanitarian law is very clear on this. I think this limit has been largely exceeded,” Prime Minister Jonas Gahr Store says on NRK public radio.
Great advice, prime minister. Have you put Hamas in “*Cc*”?
I am starting to get really angry at the idiotic useless empty statements that are completly detached from the realities on the ground. It reeks of priviledged life never having to deal with the realities of war.
It’s obvious, but what is Israel supposed to do? Accomodate to the type of combat Hamas has envisioned and therefore leading IDF units to slaughter? I would like to know from the prime minister if he would tell Norwegian soldiers to accomodate to the enemies way of combat and accept extra loses.
It’s not about being proportional. It truly isn’t. That’s not even a concept in international law.
It is about preventing similar or worse attacks. Israel needs to wipe out Hamas before they get bigger. If they turn the other cheek, another Islamic group will see their weakness and step in.
Btw, Hamas is still firing rockets at Israel.
Ah yes, my beloved prime minister, fucking dickhead.
He also lied about not having multiple phone calls with Hamas.
By a lot actually. It’s essentially making all Palestinians pay for the deeds of about 1 percent of the Palestinian population in Gaza.
It’s not really, when the USA was attacked we all went into Afghanistan. Israel is going into the strip.
I get what they are saying, but the simple truth is this is a war. It was never going be anything but this.
What is this obsession with proportionality? Was nuking two Japanese cities in WW2 proportionate? Was invading Afghanistan after 9/11 proportionate? Was invading Iraq (even if one believed the evidence about WMD) proportionate?
It’s very interesting how nobody discusses proportionality in Russia/Ukraine, in Yemen, in Syria, I only hear it brought up whenever Israel dares to attack those that attack them.
The commenters on this post – and across this sub – might be shocked to find out that conflicts like Israel-Palestine have been solved before. These solutions involved precarious ceasefires and moving away from ideas of self-defence/revenge. Some of these conflicts even happened in Europe. Quite a few of them, in fact.
So we could look to history for the nonviolent routes to lasting peace. Or we could just keep giving Israel carte blanche to reduce Gaza to ash. Whichever works.
Ahahaha, imagine hitting the bully in equal force to stop him once and for all, im sure that will work….not
No such thing as proportionality, Norway do you have a better idea? no? opinion discarded.
The Palestinians need to denounce Hamas, recognize Israel and agree to one of the MANY Peace deals they rejected & live in peace alongside Israel. until then, Israel will keep fighting Hamas, and it will help if Egypt let ppl stay safely in the Sinai or leave until the war is over.
The problem isnt the disproportion, the problem is the indiscriminate bombing of civilians and here you have countless statements from Israeli officials that back this kind of bombing.
If that attack would’ve happened to norway the entire continent would have went to full scale war
The biggest farce in war is a “proportional response” what’s the idea with that I’m only allowed to hurt you as much as you hurt me? That’s ridiculous. What does Norway think an appropriate and proportional response would’ve been? Countries with some of the most friendly neighbors around have absolutely zero understanding of what it’s like when your neighbor’s only goal in life is blowing you and everyone of your kind off the map.
There is no such thing as a proportionate response.
It’s a war. You don’t win wars with proportionate responses. These folks don’t seem very clear on the concept.
39 comments
Its easy to be the morality police when you sit thousands of kilometers away from the conflict.
The people who claim Israel needs to stop what theyre doing usually have no alternative suggestions to help Israel defend its people other than waiting until the next big hamas attack.
Unfortunately war happens when there are no other good solutions. This is no exception and its a shame this is what it has come to
Norway saying what many are, at present, reluctant to say. This kind of sentiment is going to snowball soon if Israel persists in following a policy that results in enormous numbers of deaths and casualties of non-combatants…
“Israel has the right to defend itself, and I recognize that it is very difficult to defend against attacks from an area as densely populated as Gaza,” Store says.
“Rockets are still being fired from Gaza into Israel, and we condemn this,” he adds.
Yes, but you are not asking Hamas to stop firing those rockets, nor giving any solution to returning the hostages.
Well yeah they aren’t raping women and then parading them through the streets. So I guess that’s not proportionate.
[Natasha Hausdorff address Proportionality in International Law on the BBC](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oPQbAS3-Vg)
israel not beheading enough – norway
Israel firing missiles to assassinate Hamas terrorists = Not good
Israel wants to invade Gaza to assassinate Hamas terrorists = Not good
What are your solutions then? Do nothing? Let them win after they maimed people while still alive?
Norway can fuck off seriously
It’s war. They must respond in a way that can totally eradicate Hamas, a designated terrorist group by the EU.
Whether that response is proportionate or not is an irrelevant question.
[removed]
All of this self righteousness would evaporate in an instant if Norway was invaded by genocidal Jihadists
In other words, Norway recognizes Israel’s right to defend itself… without actually defending itself.
So should we rape and behead more people? What would be appropriate? Or a better question, what does proportion have to do with anything? This war is about security not proportionality…
Until someone can propose a working solution that isn’t “do nothing and wait for Hamas to strike again” their opinion can be discarded
It clearly is and Israel is obviously engaged in collective punishment. I wonder how high the civilian death toll will have to be for us to clearly condemn Israel. Since it’s going to get higher and higher.
Another politician from the west with a condescending attitude while offering no solutions.
Many politicians started to criticize Israel without giving a viable option on how to end the conflict in the region.
Good for Norway. More countries need to stick up for human rights and international law.
Ireland can’t shoulder the burden alone.
Proportional response means that when you have two paths to acheive a military goal, you choose the path that leads to the fewest suffering possible. It does not mean “Do to your enemies about the same that they did to you” thats a misconception.
Hamas still has 90%+ of its fighters and tens of thousanda of rockets. Hamas still has 230 hostages. Hamas is still a threat of comitting another 7th October massacre.
If anything, Israel has a right to be doing a lot more.
So what would be “proportional”? IDF raiding Gaza and raping/killing the exact same number of civilians as were murdered in Israel on the 7th of October?
There’s no such thing as a proportions. Terrorists should be dealt with and period.
Big Norway Win
God .Please stop the wars.
Reminder: Hamas is regularly indiscriminately firing rockets into Israel for the 4th week now. What is a proportionate response?
What would Norway have Israel do?
[This article](https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/two-weeks-later-part-one-the-great-self-defeating-logic-loop/) in the Times of Israel described this sort of thing so well: it’s a “self-defeating logic loop”:
* I am a sane, rational person, and I accept that what Hamas did in/to Israel was atrocious, and gives Israel the right – even the duty and obligation – to do something about it
* Given it was a military attack by Hamas, I can accept that “doing something about it” means a military response.
* But, Hamas is holed-up in Gaza, and unlike in a conventional military scenario Hamas won’t come out onto an open battlefield to confront Israel.
Therefore, one way to “force” Hamas to eventually come out of hiding could be for Israel to apply the military technique of a siege (a classic military technique which has been used for thousands of years by armies all over the world).
* But Gaza is an urban, densely populated civilian area.
* Thus, any siege of Gaza, by definition, will cause civilians to suffer and put civilian life at risk. This is a war crime.
* So, Israel can’t lay siege to Gaza to force Hamas out, and if Hamas won’t come out of Gaza on its own accord, the only military option that remains is for Israel to take the fight to Hamas, in Gaza itself.
* This means bombing of Gaza, and eventually fighting on the ground in Gaza.
* But Gaza is an urban, densely populated civilian area.
* Thus, any bombing of Gaza or fighting in Gaza, by definition, will cause Palestinian civilians to suffer and put civilian life at risk. This is a war crime.
* Ergo, the only way to bomb Gaza / fight Hamas in Gaza and not commit a war crime would be to not have civilians present during the fight.
* So, the civilian population needs to evacuate from the area of battle.
* But that means lots of innocent people will become refugees and have to leave their homes. This is a war crime [collective punishment, ethnic cleansing, or attempted genocide – take your pick, but it doesn’t matter which you choose really, because they are all war crimes]
* Ergo, the only way to not commit a war crime is for the civilians of Gaza to stay put
* But, if the civilians of Gaza stay put, fighting on the ground in Gaza cannot take place, bombing of Gaza cannot take place, and a siege of Gaza is not possible.
* But Hamas is holed-up in Gaza, and won’t come out to fight “fair and square.”
* And I am a sane, rational person who accepts that what Hamas did in/to Israel was atrocious, and Israel has the right – even the duty and obligation – to do something about it
If you pull the tail of a tiger, be ready to pay for the consequences. I am really sad for the Palestinian victims (as I am for the Israeli ones) but the ones who scarified them are not the Israelis but Hamas. They most certainly knew the retribution for their crime would be terrible, they knew many innocents would have to pay for it, it didn’t stop them, the leader are safe, away from all that and are not bothered by the civilian victims, they use them to stigmatise Israel and sadly enough, in many occasion it works.
So, what would be a proportionate response? Just wondering. Staying put, letting Hamas fire more rockets, commit another massacre?
I think some people forget that besides the already killed people of Israel, Hamas also took over 200 hostages. What is Israel meant to do? Consider them acceptable casualties? I frankly think Israel actually showed restraint.
Thanks Norway. Ring me up with that advice of yours when your Scandinavian tranquility is being disturbed by a terrorist organisation with expressed goal of the eradication of all Norwegians on the planet. Let’s see how proportionate your reaction is to individuals going around beheading children and burning them alive and declaring to never ever stop that.
>“International law stipulates that [the reaction] must be proportionate. Civilians must be taken into account, and humanitarian law is very clear on this. I think this limit has been largely exceeded,” Prime Minister Jonas Gahr Store says on NRK public radio.
Great advice, prime minister. Have you put Hamas in “*Cc*”?
I am starting to get really angry at the idiotic useless empty statements that are completly detached from the realities on the ground. It reeks of priviledged life never having to deal with the realities of war.
It’s obvious, but what is Israel supposed to do? Accomodate to the type of combat Hamas has envisioned and therefore leading IDF units to slaughter? I would like to know from the prime minister if he would tell Norwegian soldiers to accomodate to the enemies way of combat and accept extra loses.
It’s not about being proportional. It truly isn’t. That’s not even a concept in international law.
It is about preventing similar or worse attacks. Israel needs to wipe out Hamas before they get bigger. If they turn the other cheek, another Islamic group will see their weakness and step in.
Btw, Hamas is still firing rockets at Israel.
Ah yes, my beloved prime minister, fucking dickhead.
He also lied about not having multiple phone calls with Hamas.
By a lot actually. It’s essentially making all Palestinians pay for the deeds of about 1 percent of the Palestinian population in Gaza.
It’s not really, when the USA was attacked we all went into Afghanistan. Israel is going into the strip.
I get what they are saying, but the simple truth is this is a war. It was never going be anything but this.
What is this obsession with proportionality? Was nuking two Japanese cities in WW2 proportionate? Was invading Afghanistan after 9/11 proportionate? Was invading Iraq (even if one believed the evidence about WMD) proportionate?
It’s very interesting how nobody discusses proportionality in Russia/Ukraine, in Yemen, in Syria, I only hear it brought up whenever Israel dares to attack those that attack them.
The commenters on this post – and across this sub – might be shocked to find out that conflicts like Israel-Palestine have been solved before. These solutions involved precarious ceasefires and moving away from ideas of self-defence/revenge. Some of these conflicts even happened in Europe. Quite a few of them, in fact.
So we could look to history for the nonviolent routes to lasting peace. Or we could just keep giving Israel carte blanche to reduce Gaza to ash. Whichever works.
Ahahaha, imagine hitting the bully in equal force to stop him once and for all, im sure that will work….not
No such thing as proportionality, Norway do you have a better idea? no? opinion discarded.
The Palestinians need to denounce Hamas, recognize Israel and agree to one of the MANY Peace deals they rejected & live in peace alongside Israel. until then, Israel will keep fighting Hamas, and it will help if Egypt let ppl stay safely in the Sinai or leave until the war is over.
The problem isnt the disproportion, the problem is the indiscriminate bombing of civilians and here you have countless statements from Israeli officials that back this kind of bombing.
If that attack would’ve happened to norway the entire continent would have went to full scale war
The biggest farce in war is a “proportional response” what’s the idea with that I’m only allowed to hurt you as much as you hurt me? That’s ridiculous. What does Norway think an appropriate and proportional response would’ve been? Countries with some of the most friendly neighbors around have absolutely zero understanding of what it’s like when your neighbor’s only goal in life is blowing you and everyone of your kind off the map.
There is no such thing as a proportionate response.
It’s a war. You don’t win wars with proportionate responses. These folks don’t seem very clear on the concept.