Its not about proportionality though, its about taking out the Hamas, so what happened on 07/10 doesn’t happen again and those resposible pay.
Why don’t these clever guys help Israel to defeat Hamas? And what should be the proper answer after 1400 of your citizens were slaughtered?
I’m a serious believer in a two states solution but after having so many of your countrymen slaughtered by terrorists you need to strike hard before even thinking about peace. You won’t obtain peace from terrorists who dream about killing your entire people by being gentle.
**Human Rights Council Conemnatory Resolution 2006-2022:**
1. Zimbabwe, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Pakistan, China, Cuba – 0
2. Sudan – 2, Venezuela – 3, Russia – 6, Eritrea – 13, Iran – 14, North Korea – 16, Syria – 43.
3. Israel – 140. More than all other countries combined.
**UN General Assembly Condemnatory Resolutions, 2015-2022:**
1. Zimbabwe, Venezuela, Pakistan, Turkey, Libya, Qatar, Cuba, China: 0.
2. Myanmar – 7, Iran – 7, North Korea – 8, USA – 9, Syria – 10, Russia – 23.
3. Israel – 104. More than all other countries combined.
Does Israel violate more rights and freedoms than all countries in the World combined?
Chronology of events:
1. On October 7th, by unprovoked killing of 1,400 Israeli civilians, Hamas, legally, started a war against Israel. 15th similar war/conflict. All started not by Israel.
1. The genocide argument is laughable due to the presence in Israel 18% peaceful Muslim civilians and about 5600 Palestinian deaths (including combatants) in 2008-2020 years relatively to 5,2 million Palestinians in State of Palestine.
2. Israel responded in the same way as the Allies responded against the Nazis in 1941-1945 – by destroying militarized objects.
3. Because ALL this militarized objects, for a number of reasons, located in the basements of multi-story residential buildings, has begun evacuation of the population. As quickly as possible, so that Hamas doesn’t have time to redeploy/disperse weapons depots.
4. Then Israel started doing…
1. I’ll say right away, I, personally, condemn the way in which this evacuation began, as and almost everything related to Israel “new settlements policy.” Israel is not a saint, but it is a rational agent and its motivations are understandable, unlike Hamas who killed 1400 Israelis just for chaos.
2. Israel began bombing underground tunnels that often under residential buildings (that for a long time had to be evacuated). Maps of the tunnel locations can be found on Reddit.
– I am a sane, rational person, and I accept that what Hamas did in/to Israel was atrocious, and gives Israel the right – even the duty and obligation – to do something about it
– Given it was a military attack by Hamas, I can accept that “doing something about it” means a military response.
– But, Hamas is holed-up in Gaza, and unlike in a conventional military scenario Hamas won’t come out onto an open battlefield to confront Israel. Therefore, one way to “force” Hamas to eventually come out of hiding could be for Israel to apply the military technique of a siege (a classic military technique which has been used for thousands of years by armies all over the world).
– But Gaza is an urban, densely populated civilian area.
– Thus, any siege of Gaza, by definition, will cause civilians to suffer and put civilian life at risk. This is a war crime.
– So, Israel can’t lay siege to Gaza to force Hamas out, and if Hamas won’t come out of Gaza on its own accord, the only military option that remains is for Israel to take the fight to Hamas, in Gaza itself.
– This means bombing of Gaza, and eventually fighting on the ground in Gaza.
– But Gaza is an urban, densely populated civilian area.
– Thus, any bombing of Gaza or fighting in Gaza, by definition, will cause Palestinian civilians to suffer and put civilian life at risk. This is a war crime.
– Ergo, the only way to bomb Gaza / fight Hamas in Gaza and not commit a war crime would be to not have civilians present during the fight.
– So, the civilian population needs to evacuate from the area of battle.
– But that means lots of innocent people will become refugees and have to leave their homes. This is a war crime [collective punishment, ethnic cleansing, or attempted genocide – take your pick, but it doesn’t matter which you choose really, because they are all war crimes]
– Ergo, the only way to not commit a war crime is for the civilians of Gaza to stay put
– But, if the civilians of Gaza stay put, fighting on the ground in Gaza cannot take place, bombing of Gaza cannot take place, and a siege of Gaza is not possible.
– But Hamas is holed-up in Gaza, and won’t come out to fight “fair and square.”
– And I am a sane, rational person who accepts that what Hamas did in/to Israel was atrocious, and Israel has the right – even the duty and obligation – to do something about it.
At which point, the loop starts again. For completeness, this being a loop that, as far as I can tell, is seldom / never applied to any other conflict, anywhere else in the world.
So what would be then? That’s the thing these people never say.
So he says IDF should attack and kill proportional number od civilians to be ok with his consciousness? Right…
Good, more people need to be calling out Israels evil.
So what would be fair is to go house to house and rape and murder exactly the same amount of civilians?
That would be proportional and good?
I used to think that many europeans are hypocrites for expecting Israel to just accept being shot at with rockets, accept barbaric attacks on civilians, kidnapping etc.
But now I think they’re not hypocrites and would themselves actually accept those things happening to people in their country, and would not effectively fight against it.
The word proportionality has no place in war. It’s completely nonsensical to suggest the goal of war is to inflict proportional damage on the enemy trying to destroy you.
Can you imagine if the U.S. responded to Pearl Harbor by blowing up a handful of Japanese planes?!?
Does Norway think conflicts are just “kill an equal amount of people and you’re even”…? It’s not about that. It’s about decapitating the organization that has for years oppressed Gazans and lobbed rockets and militants at Israeli civilians.
What is Israel supposed to do? Call everything off and wait for Hamas to regroup so they can attack again? Someone please give me an answer of what’s a realistic way for Israel to handle this
Europe never again. You guys failed us . This is us fighting back this time. If you don’t like it know hamas wants your ass too
Half the Western world looked negatively upon Netanyahu’s government before the war that only became a war since his government ignored multiple warnings of an imminent attack.. Bombing a refugee camp only to take down one (yes one) Hamas general is moronic at least let alone the demand of evacuating dozens of patients from a hospital who are in critical condition, the damage done to the warehouse of the red moon, the deaths of UN workers, bombing near the Gaza/Egypt border and so on. If Israel genuinely cared about civilian casualties, they’d let them pass their borders and arrange a corridor into the west bank for example or they’d give Egypt room to at least allow people in Gaza with different nationalities across the border.
Fuck Hamas and the Palestinians who support them and fuck the Israeli government and whoever supports them.
glad he said this 🙏
we must not upset the muslim asylum seekers that might get a bit stabby 😔
One could argue that this is an impossible situation. Impossible, because it looks like there are enough palestinians who are intentionally willing to put themselves (and their children) in harms way. That’s on top of human shields situation. How do you avoid tragic loss of innocent lives in such situation while also ensuring that Hamas is eliminated and doesn’t pose any future threat?
It’s also worth pointing out that the only reason Israel is not counting their civilian deaths (child and adult, women and men, young and old) in thousands or even tens of thousands, is their iron dome system that eliminates most of incoming rockets. Just during October alone there were 8000-10000 rockets launched from Gaza to Israel, indiscriminately targeting everything and everyone. That’s 250-350 rockets per day (if simply divided but the number of days). Just think about this number for a bit.
Imagine someone was shooting rockets at your country, city, neighbors… day after day, week after week, year after year. What would you do?
Israel once traded 1027 (primarily Palestinian) prisoners for the life of 1 IDF soldier.
On the 7th of October Israel lost 1300+~ lives.
Their response was never going to be proportional.
What would be proportional to twenty years of rockets and suicide attacks?
The quiet part nobody is saying out loud is Israel could level the whole place but isn’t.
I don’t think I would show the same restraint. Burn the fucking place down let the Arabs who are and sheltered terrorists the last twenty years find homes among their brethren somewhere else
We forgot what war in our countries feels like in Europe. We were so good at it we almost took ourselves out.
A quick summary of the discussion about this event:
• It didn’t happen
•It was Hamas’ fault
• They weren’t real refugees because they didn’t live in tents
• Tecnically It isn’t a war crime
• Ok, it is, but Palestinians deserve it
• Something, something you are pro-Hamas if you think bombing civilians is bad
We have reached the bottom and now we are digging
I feel like many in the West live in a sort of bubble where they can’t fathom anything evil happening. Imagine if one of your neighbours launches a massive raid on your country, brutally rape and kill over 1,400 of your citizens, and kidnapped over 200 others, including foreign nationals. All the while, they launch thousands of rockets at your cities and publicly declare their intent to wipe your country off the map. This same group of people hide behind their own civilians and essentially hold them hostage in one of the most densely populated places in the world. How would you respond? Just call a cease fire and let bygones be bygones?
It is clear Hamas has to go and unfortunately, they are not willing to go peacefully. It is truly tragic for all the innocent civilians who are going to suffer, but how else do you remove Hamas out of power? Nazi Germany did not go away peacefully.
Maybe they would have preferred that the allies in WWII acted “proportionately”, negotiated a ceasefire with Hitler, and left the Quisling regime in charge of Norway.
21 comments
Good on Norway for continuing to call this out.
Hope some of the absolute galaxy brains from the [last time Norway commented on this issue](https://pay.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/17j7o4o/norway_says_israel_response_to_hamas_attack/) are feeling as smug and self-assured as they were then. How much more pointless death is required?
Its not about proportionality though, its about taking out the Hamas, so what happened on 07/10 doesn’t happen again and those resposible pay.
Why don’t these clever guys help Israel to defeat Hamas? And what should be the proper answer after 1400 of your citizens were slaughtered?
I’m a serious believer in a two states solution but after having so many of your countrymen slaughtered by terrorists you need to strike hard before even thinking about peace. You won’t obtain peace from terrorists who dream about killing your entire people by being gentle.
**Human Rights Council Conemnatory Resolution 2006-2022:**
1. Zimbabwe, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Pakistan, China, Cuba – 0
2. Sudan – 2, Venezuela – 3, Russia – 6, Eritrea – 13, Iran – 14, North Korea – 16, Syria – 43.
3. Israel – 140. More than all other countries combined.
**UN General Assembly Condemnatory Resolutions, 2015-2022:**
1. Zimbabwe, Venezuela, Pakistan, Turkey, Libya, Qatar, Cuba, China: 0.
2. Myanmar – 7, Iran – 7, North Korea – 8, USA – 9, Syria – 10, Russia – 23.
3. Israel – 104. More than all other countries combined.
Source – [https://unwatch.org/database/](https://unwatch.org/database/)
Does Israel violate more rights and freedoms than all countries in the World combined?
Chronology of events:
1. On October 7th, by unprovoked killing of 1,400 Israeli civilians, Hamas, legally, started a war against Israel. 15th similar war/conflict. All started not by Israel.
1. The genocide argument is laughable due to the presence in Israel 18% peaceful Muslim civilians and about 5600 Palestinian deaths (including combatants) in 2008-2020 years relatively to 5,2 million Palestinians in State of Palestine.
2. Israel responded in the same way as the Allies responded against the Nazis in 1941-1945 – by destroying militarized objects.
3. Because ALL this militarized objects, for a number of reasons, located in the basements of multi-story residential buildings, has begun evacuation of the population. As quickly as possible, so that Hamas doesn’t have time to redeploy/disperse weapons depots.
4. Then Israel started doing…
1. I’ll say right away, I, personally, condemn the way in which this evacuation began, as and almost everything related to Israel “new settlements policy.” Israel is not a saint, but it is a rational agent and its motivations are understandable, unlike Hamas who killed 1400 Israelis just for chaos.
2. Israel began bombing underground tunnels that often under residential buildings (that for a long time had to be evacuated). Maps of the tunnel locations can be found on Reddit.
Either the above or endless repetition of loop:
[https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/two-weeks-later-part-one-the-great-self-defeating-logic-loop/](https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/two-weeks-later-part-one-the-great-self-defeating-logic-loop/)
– I am a sane, rational person, and I accept that what Hamas did in/to Israel was atrocious, and gives Israel the right – even the duty and obligation – to do something about it
– Given it was a military attack by Hamas, I can accept that “doing something about it” means a military response.
– But, Hamas is holed-up in Gaza, and unlike in a conventional military scenario Hamas won’t come out onto an open battlefield to confront Israel. Therefore, one way to “force” Hamas to eventually come out of hiding could be for Israel to apply the military technique of a siege (a classic military technique which has been used for thousands of years by armies all over the world).
– But Gaza is an urban, densely populated civilian area.
– Thus, any siege of Gaza, by definition, will cause civilians to suffer and put civilian life at risk. This is a war crime.
– So, Israel can’t lay siege to Gaza to force Hamas out, and if Hamas won’t come out of Gaza on its own accord, the only military option that remains is for Israel to take the fight to Hamas, in Gaza itself.
– This means bombing of Gaza, and eventually fighting on the ground in Gaza.
– But Gaza is an urban, densely populated civilian area.
– Thus, any bombing of Gaza or fighting in Gaza, by definition, will cause Palestinian civilians to suffer and put civilian life at risk. This is a war crime.
– Ergo, the only way to bomb Gaza / fight Hamas in Gaza and not commit a war crime would be to not have civilians present during the fight.
– So, the civilian population needs to evacuate from the area of battle.
– But that means lots of innocent people will become refugees and have to leave their homes. This is a war crime [collective punishment, ethnic cleansing, or attempted genocide – take your pick, but it doesn’t matter which you choose really, because they are all war crimes]
– Ergo, the only way to not commit a war crime is for the civilians of Gaza to stay put
– But, if the civilians of Gaza stay put, fighting on the ground in Gaza cannot take place, bombing of Gaza cannot take place, and a siege of Gaza is not possible.
– But Hamas is holed-up in Gaza, and won’t come out to fight “fair and square.”
– And I am a sane, rational person who accepts that what Hamas did in/to Israel was atrocious, and Israel has the right – even the duty and obligation – to do something about it.
At which point, the loop starts again. For completeness, this being a loop that, as far as I can tell, is seldom / never applied to any other conflict, anywhere else in the world.
So what would be then? That’s the thing these people never say.
So he says IDF should attack and kill proportional number od civilians to be ok with his consciousness? Right…
Good, more people need to be calling out Israels evil.
So what would be fair is to go house to house and rape and murder exactly the same amount of civilians?
That would be proportional and good?
I used to think that many europeans are hypocrites for expecting Israel to just accept being shot at with rockets, accept barbaric attacks on civilians, kidnapping etc.
But now I think they’re not hypocrites and would themselves actually accept those things happening to people in their country, and would not effectively fight against it.
The word proportionality has no place in war. It’s completely nonsensical to suggest the goal of war is to inflict proportional damage on the enemy trying to destroy you.
Can you imagine if the U.S. responded to Pearl Harbor by blowing up a handful of Japanese planes?!?
Does Norway think conflicts are just “kill an equal amount of people and you’re even”…? It’s not about that. It’s about decapitating the organization that has for years oppressed Gazans and lobbed rockets and militants at Israeli civilians.
What is Israel supposed to do? Call everything off and wait for Hamas to regroup so they can attack again? Someone please give me an answer of what’s a realistic way for Israel to handle this
Europe never again. You guys failed us . This is us fighting back this time. If you don’t like it know hamas wants your ass too
Half the Western world looked negatively upon Netanyahu’s government before the war that only became a war since his government ignored multiple warnings of an imminent attack.. Bombing a refugee camp only to take down one (yes one) Hamas general is moronic at least let alone the demand of evacuating dozens of patients from a hospital who are in critical condition, the damage done to the warehouse of the red moon, the deaths of UN workers, bombing near the Gaza/Egypt border and so on. If Israel genuinely cared about civilian casualties, they’d let them pass their borders and arrange a corridor into the west bank for example or they’d give Egypt room to at least allow people in Gaza with different nationalities across the border.
Fuck Hamas and the Palestinians who support them and fuck the Israeli government and whoever supports them.
glad he said this 🙏
we must not upset the muslim asylum seekers that might get a bit stabby 😔
One could argue that this is an impossible situation. Impossible, because it looks like there are enough palestinians who are intentionally willing to put themselves (and their children) in harms way. That’s on top of human shields situation. How do you avoid tragic loss of innocent lives in such situation while also ensuring that Hamas is eliminated and doesn’t pose any future threat?
It’s also worth pointing out that the only reason Israel is not counting their civilian deaths (child and adult, women and men, young and old) in thousands or even tens of thousands, is their iron dome system that eliminates most of incoming rockets. Just during October alone there were 8000-10000 rockets launched from Gaza to Israel, indiscriminately targeting everything and everyone. That’s 250-350 rockets per day (if simply divided but the number of days). Just think about this number for a bit.
Imagine someone was shooting rockets at your country, city, neighbors… day after day, week after week, year after year. What would you do?
Israel once traded 1027 (primarily Palestinian) prisoners for the life of 1 IDF soldier.
On the 7th of October Israel lost 1300+~ lives.
Their response was never going to be proportional.
What would be proportional to twenty years of rockets and suicide attacks?
The quiet part nobody is saying out loud is Israel could level the whole place but isn’t.
I don’t think I would show the same restraint. Burn the fucking place down let the Arabs who are and sheltered terrorists the last twenty years find homes among their brethren somewhere else
We forgot what war in our countries feels like in Europe. We were so good at it we almost took ourselves out.
A quick summary of the discussion about this event:
• It didn’t happen
•It was Hamas’ fault
• They weren’t real refugees because they didn’t live in tents
• Tecnically It isn’t a war crime
• Ok, it is, but Palestinians deserve it
• Something, something you are pro-Hamas if you think bombing civilians is bad
We have reached the bottom and now we are digging
I feel like many in the West live in a sort of bubble where they can’t fathom anything evil happening. Imagine if one of your neighbours launches a massive raid on your country, brutally rape and kill over 1,400 of your citizens, and kidnapped over 200 others, including foreign nationals. All the while, they launch thousands of rockets at your cities and publicly declare their intent to wipe your country off the map. This same group of people hide behind their own civilians and essentially hold them hostage in one of the most densely populated places in the world. How would you respond? Just call a cease fire and let bygones be bygones?
It is clear Hamas has to go and unfortunately, they are not willing to go peacefully. It is truly tragic for all the innocent civilians who are going to suffer, but how else do you remove Hamas out of power? Nazi Germany did not go away peacefully.
Maybe they would have preferred that the allies in WWII acted “proportionately”, negotiated a ceasefire with Hitler, and left the Quisling regime in charge of Norway.