Where was Belgian PM when peaceful people at peace event where getting killed? Why not call Hamas at that time?
I think it was never about proportionality. War is never about proportionality. And with the actions Hamas took a month ago, they opened Pandoras Box for every Palestinian
Belgian PM says that Israel has a right to defend itself and that it’s logical to want to get rid of Hamas. Then says the solution for Hamas is dialogue.
THIS is what people point at when they say many europeans are naive at best if not outright in favor of terrorism against the Jews in Israel.
Alright. Do you have any suggestions then, on how the Israeli state could respond to something like that in order to neutralize Hamas which is hiding inside Gaza? So many naive Europeans are talking nonsense without saying what else can be done on an operational level.
Ethnic cleansing is never proportionate 🤷🏽♂️ nice to hear another European voice apart from the Irish and Scottish calling this out 👍
That’s why in the last 2 days we’ve seen 2 humanitarian corridors opened by the IDF for civilians to evacuate south, after Hamas had stopped them. If Israel stops, Oct. 7 will happen again. Hamas has to be driven out, or this conflict will never end.
Don’t get me wrong I do not support Hamas at all the way they attacked civilians is unacceptable and disgusting. But bombing everyone in Gaza and force them to migrate is also unacceptable. If you are not against Israel in this and say yes Israel needs to kill every Palestinian to get rid of Hamas you are at the wrong side.
Considering Brussels is a hotbed of terrorism, I think he should sit this one out.
Dafuck is proportianate?
The proportionality test is:
1. A valid military objective
2. A means that will achieve the objective
3. The inexistence of another means of achieving that goal that would incur lower civilian deaths for a similar military cost.
What does the Belgian PM suggest the Israelis do to dislodge and remove the Hamas terror group from Gaza? I can’t think of another option that the Israelis could choose that would satisfy the test.
It seems instead that the Belgian PM is throwing around legal terms that he doesn’t understand
There are always wars, but people are always innocent
This kind of sums up what he means according to the article:
> While De Croo said he has condemned Hamas’ attack and supported Israel’s right to defend itself, recent retaliatory attacks have been excessive.
> “Bombing an entire refugee camp with the intention of taking out one terrorist, I don’t think you can say that is proportional,” De Croo said on Monday. “It is a bridge too far. And also unbridled violence in the West Bank, you have to be careful.”
> De Croo said that while it is “perfectly logical” to “seek a solution” to Hamas, the question is “how the solution should be found,” according to Belgian news sites. He added that political dialogue is what will lead to a solution to the conflict.
Can we stop pretending that wars can be fought fairly. This naive narrative is just ridiculous.
The aim is not to be proportionate. The aim is to make sure Octover 7 does not happen again.
It was never going to be, Israel and Palestine don’t fuck around like we do. They’re not interested in playing our cutesy geopolitical games where “ouu you stepped over this line, now i’m going to put a toe over your line or condemn you” over and over again for theatre.
It’s “that was the last straw, now you’re getting annihilated”. Neither side wants a tit-for-tat exchange of annihilations, either, they’d both prefer a one-sided victory with minimal losses to their side and maximal losses to the enemy.
These “rules” and “norms” like proportionate responding only exist if everyone agrees to them, these aren’t fundamental laws of the universe. We may take them for granted but they are not universal.
What exactly would be a proportionate response? What exactly should Israel do after the Oct. 7 attacks? Yes, I agree that Israel’s current response is going to create a new generation of radicalized Palestinians. But realistically, what other alternatives are there?
Use special forces? The overall scale and number of hostages mean that this is not a viable option.
Ceasefire? This would mean Hamas suffers no consequences for Oct. 7 and Israel should just go back to the status quo and hope for the best when the next terror attack happens?
End the occupation? This option sounds very nice on paper. The problem is Hamas has made it clear they are never going to stop until they kill all Jews and destroy Israel from existence. Even if Israel grants Palestinian statehood tomorrow, Hamas is not going to lay down their arms and peacefully co-exist with their new Jewish neighbours.
Have the hostages been returned yet? Have the attacks on Israel stopped yet? No? Go on then.
Easy to say that. How is Israel supposed to live alongside Hamas after October 7th? This has to go on until Hamas has been completely annihilated.
Everyone knows the rule of war: Even Stevens!
The US glassing two cities probably wasn’t proportionate either, but it sure did end the worst war in history. Who says proportionality is supposed to be a thing in warfare? Do they want this thing to go on forever?
Time to recognise Palestine as a sovereign state. The limbo status only empowers Hamas & gives credence to Israel’s apartheid.
Proportionate? So he thinks this is about killing the same number of civilians or what? This is a terrorist and vengeful mentality.
It is not about proportionality, it’s about achieving military success against a terrorist organization.
Never was
Israel is actively creating the next generation of ‘terrorists’. I’d probably become an extremist lunatic too if I watched my entire family get blown to pieces
He’s absolutely correct. It’s so horrifying to watch a genocide in real time.
Fuck me it’s worrying how many people on here support ethnic cleansing.
Another thing is that “proportionate” is way more subjective than this person realizes. Are we going to assume a cold, utilitarian assessment of deaths and set that as the limit for how many they are allowed to kill? We need to go 1:1?
I think that’s actually more fucked up honestly, also people don’t behave like that, they are more outraged when it is child innocents vs IDF fighters for example. Emotions are high, some acts are perceived as worse than others based on cultural differences etc., and you’d have to strip all of that to even begin thinking about establishing a universal concept of proportionality
When striking back, you have to completely finish the enemy or they will just hit you again
29 comments
Where was Belgian PM when peaceful people at peace event where getting killed? Why not call Hamas at that time?
I think it was never about proportionality. War is never about proportionality. And with the actions Hamas took a month ago, they opened Pandoras Box for every Palestinian
Belgian PM says that Israel has a right to defend itself and that it’s logical to want to get rid of Hamas. Then says the solution for Hamas is dialogue.
THIS is what people point at when they say many europeans are naive at best if not outright in favor of terrorism against the Jews in Israel.
Alright. Do you have any suggestions then, on how the Israeli state could respond to something like that in order to neutralize Hamas which is hiding inside Gaza? So many naive Europeans are talking nonsense without saying what else can be done on an operational level.
Ethnic cleansing is never proportionate 🤷🏽♂️ nice to hear another European voice apart from the Irish and Scottish calling this out 👍
That’s why in the last 2 days we’ve seen 2 humanitarian corridors opened by the IDF for civilians to evacuate south, after Hamas had stopped them. If Israel stops, Oct. 7 will happen again. Hamas has to be driven out, or this conflict will never end.
Don’t get me wrong I do not support Hamas at all the way they attacked civilians is unacceptable and disgusting. But bombing everyone in Gaza and force them to migrate is also unacceptable. If you are not against Israel in this and say yes Israel needs to kill every Palestinian to get rid of Hamas you are at the wrong side.
Considering Brussels is a hotbed of terrorism, I think he should sit this one out.
Dafuck is proportianate?
The proportionality test is:
1. A valid military objective
2. A means that will achieve the objective
3. The inexistence of another means of achieving that goal that would incur lower civilian deaths for a similar military cost.
What does the Belgian PM suggest the Israelis do to dislodge and remove the Hamas terror group from Gaza? I can’t think of another option that the Israelis could choose that would satisfy the test.
It seems instead that the Belgian PM is throwing around legal terms that he doesn’t understand
There are always wars, but people are always innocent
This kind of sums up what he means according to the article:
> While De Croo said he has condemned Hamas’ attack and supported Israel’s right to defend itself, recent retaliatory attacks have been excessive.
> “Bombing an entire refugee camp with the intention of taking out one terrorist, I don’t think you can say that is proportional,” De Croo said on Monday. “It is a bridge too far. And also unbridled violence in the West Bank, you have to be careful.”
> De Croo said that while it is “perfectly logical” to “seek a solution” to Hamas, the question is “how the solution should be found,” according to Belgian news sites. He added that political dialogue is what will lead to a solution to the conflict.
Can we stop pretending that wars can be fought fairly. This naive narrative is just ridiculous.
The aim is not to be proportionate. The aim is to make sure Octover 7 does not happen again.
It was never going to be, Israel and Palestine don’t fuck around like we do. They’re not interested in playing our cutesy geopolitical games where “ouu you stepped over this line, now i’m going to put a toe over your line or condemn you” over and over again for theatre.
It’s “that was the last straw, now you’re getting annihilated”. Neither side wants a tit-for-tat exchange of annihilations, either, they’d both prefer a one-sided victory with minimal losses to their side and maximal losses to the enemy.
These “rules” and “norms” like proportionate responding only exist if everyone agrees to them, these aren’t fundamental laws of the universe. We may take them for granted but they are not universal.
What exactly would be a proportionate response? What exactly should Israel do after the Oct. 7 attacks? Yes, I agree that Israel’s current response is going to create a new generation of radicalized Palestinians. But realistically, what other alternatives are there?
Use special forces? The overall scale and number of hostages mean that this is not a viable option.
Ceasefire? This would mean Hamas suffers no consequences for Oct. 7 and Israel should just go back to the status quo and hope for the best when the next terror attack happens?
End the occupation? This option sounds very nice on paper. The problem is Hamas has made it clear they are never going to stop until they kill all Jews and destroy Israel from existence. Even if Israel grants Palestinian statehood tomorrow, Hamas is not going to lay down their arms and peacefully co-exist with their new Jewish neighbours.
Have the hostages been returned yet? Have the attacks on Israel stopped yet? No? Go on then.
Easy to say that. How is Israel supposed to live alongside Hamas after October 7th? This has to go on until Hamas has been completely annihilated.
Everyone knows the rule of war: Even Stevens!
The US glassing two cities probably wasn’t proportionate either, but it sure did end the worst war in history. Who says proportionality is supposed to be a thing in warfare? Do they want this thing to go on forever?
Time to recognise Palestine as a sovereign state. The limbo status only empowers Hamas & gives credence to Israel’s apartheid.
Proportionate? So he thinks this is about killing the same number of civilians or what? This is a terrorist and vengeful mentality.
It is not about proportionality, it’s about achieving military success against a terrorist organization.
Never was
Israel is actively creating the next generation of ‘terrorists’. I’d probably become an extremist lunatic too if I watched my entire family get blown to pieces
He’s absolutely correct. It’s so horrifying to watch a genocide in real time.
Fuck me it’s worrying how many people on here support ethnic cleansing.
Another thing is that “proportionate” is way more subjective than this person realizes. Are we going to assume a cold, utilitarian assessment of deaths and set that as the limit for how many they are allowed to kill? We need to go 1:1?
I think that’s actually more fucked up honestly, also people don’t behave like that, they are more outraged when it is child innocents vs IDF fighters for example. Emotions are high, some acts are perceived as worse than others based on cultural differences etc., and you’d have to strip all of that to even begin thinking about establishing a universal concept of proportionality
When striking back, you have to completely finish the enemy or they will just hit you again
What was a proportionate response then?