The United States expects Europe to know its place. Why shouldn’t Russia too?
And EU actually thought that Trump’s departure will change anything.
Well if Europe wants to be taken serious, it needs to grow some muscles. Not only Russia and China, but US and Turkey are challenging it. The sooner EU Army is built, the better.
Not without Europeans. *Because* no Europeans have stepped up to take on the role.
of course not, it’s adults only
[deleted]
Europeans cannot be involved in the discussion because there’s no united European front on any single issue. Why would Russia go into negotiations/discussions with the EU when it is 100% guaranteed that Poland and the Baltics will veto any draft treaty outlined?
With the U.S, we know we can talk business as we have a history of inking treaties with them (although they pull out sometimes), there is a consistent track record to agree on things. With the EU however, there is no common position on anything, from security, energy (some want Nuclear, some want gas, some even want coal!), so there’s no point discussing a unified agreement with them.
US is better in defending Europe then actual Europe
France and Germany proposed to meet with Russia and it was not accepted by the council.
They can all fuck off out of Europe! Im sick of this. Were not a russian+american war playground.
This is what you get when you decide to not take your responsibility on your own security and shift that burden to the US. If you want a seat on table, do not ask for it, earn it.
EU needs nuclear umbrella that is independent of USA and of any single member state to prevent the scenario of being left without one. Also update the nuclear doctrine to match one of Russia. MAD deterrence protecting EU member states is becoming an absolute necessity thanks to a certain megalomaniac imperialist on a power trip. Only way to guarantee peace and safety in Europe now.
Russians know that EU politicians follow orders from White House so it would be pointless to have them taking part in these discussions.
That is because they don’t see Europe or Europeans as equals or people with independent mindset, they dont respect Europeans.
Bruh
Doesn’t hurt to have a reality check every once in a while.
This title is highly missleading. There will be MANY EUROPEANS present representing their Nato countries. What the headline should say is that there are no European Union representatives present. Massive difference.
Remember U.S. discussing Afghanistan’s fate with Taliban without Afghanistan’s government? Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Well maybe if you guys as a collective wanted to idk, not freeload off the US security umbrella, then maybe you’d get a seat at the big boy table. Rather than stuffing your faces with the Gerber mushy baby food in your high chair crying to mother Russia.
Because Eastern Europe trusts the US over Germany/France regarding Russia, for better or worse.
Is not a surprise, Russia still stuck in the 1970s, thinking it’s a superpower and equal to the USA (while only have a GDP of Italy and a few thousand nukes).
The second to last thing Russia wants to do is to treat Europeans as parties to discussions like this.
Of course the last they want is for the EU to get its game together and have a military which is reflective of its industrial and economic clout. But they way it treats the EU, it’s actions on its borders, will, like so much of Putin’s policies, create the very scenario that he tries to avoid (eg drive Eastward expansion of NATO by annexing countries, hacking and bullying them).
Russia is concerned over the amount of American forces in Europe. I don’t see how someone else should have a say in that given that they already have permission from the host countries. America is deciding what risks it is willing to take.
Munich Argeement Vibes
We’re gonna make make our own Security. With blackjack. And hookers!
In fact, forget about the Security and the blackjack!
Aaaah screw the whole thing…
Ask yourselves. What is the game-changing geostrategic event of the last few months that could explain Putin’s attitudes now? Why did he not push more for Ukraine when he had a favorable Trump at the White House? Why only now?
For me, it could be that the game-changing event was the Afghanistan withdrawal. This is when Russia probably fully understood that the US pivoting to China was not some kind of dumb slogan but an actual process sanctioned by both sides of the American political spectrum from Obama to Trump and eventually Biden.
The Russians saw it. They saw that the US were committed enough to leave the British behind in an open field, so to speak. They also saw that they were OK to screw the French and their Australian contracts only to speed up their redeployment towards the Indo-Pacific. And eventually they saw that Eastern Europe was still not grasping that this strategic shift was happening, with Ukraine, Poland still relentlessly hoping for more American involvement when only less was to be expected.
So Putin saw this as an opportunity. He would claim that his fears come down to another NATO expansion while in reality he is fully aware of that alliance losing some priority in the American strategic think tanks. And this is why he refused the Europeans take part in the negociations he triggered, in my opinion.
His game is to hopefully talk or seduce or trick the Americans into what they would do regardless, but only faster. And that is disengaging from NATO while pivoting to Asia.
He knows Biden is not going to defend Ukraine more than through sanctions, and so he comes to the table with a grand NATO shrinking plan that doesn’t even allow for sanctions and goes beyond Ukraine. He pushes further than what he knows he will get eventually. But he cannot do that too openly, otherwise the Americans would feel wary they are making things too easy for him, so his public stance does not let know he understands NATO is bound to be less important and pretends the exact opposite, that he is still caught in an old fashioned vision of the world when NATO was growing. This tricks Western analysts prone to see him as just the typical delusional dictator while he might well be actually about to fully harvest the fruits of what is first and foremost an American policy, the pivot to China.
Russia is simply discussing its security with the immediate superior of Europe
Apparently the title is misleading but if it were true should we be complaining? Europeans don’t seem to be taking our mutual security very seriously.
What would happen if tomorrow a war broke out? Probably half the countries wouldn’t want to fight cause it isn’t safe, Germany would ask if a war with Russia might interfere with gas prices or Gazprom stock options, the Dutch government would veto any decision that could help Eastern Europe and the Bulgarian government would ask if they could get invaded first. We are a shitshow.
> Russia
> Without Europeans
Technically incorrect.
Yet again the problem is NATO dividing foreign policy ideas within the EU. The EU needs to be fully self-sufficient in terms of foreign policy and cut loose from the USA (but remain close allies, obviously). Only once we are responsible for our own defence will the internal discord cease. Because then we no longer have the luxury to see NATO as our main defence; we’d be forced to figure our own foreign policy out. I maintain that for the future it’s going to have to be a choice between continuing to lean on NATO or to become a fully self-sufficient global actor as the EU. NATO and EU cannot coexist imo. We’ll only ever get coherent foreign policy if we actually NEED it; i.e. only once we can no longer sit back and lean on US protection whenever we like. Why go through troublesome discussions about a common foreign policy if you can pick and choose between the EU and US?
30 comments
The United States expects Europe to know its place. Why shouldn’t Russia too?
And EU actually thought that Trump’s departure will change anything.
Well if Europe wants to be taken serious, it needs to grow some muscles. Not only Russia and China, but US and Turkey are challenging it. The sooner EU Army is built, the better.
Not without Europeans. *Because* no Europeans have stepped up to take on the role.
of course not, it’s adults only
[deleted]
Europeans cannot be involved in the discussion because there’s no united European front on any single issue. Why would Russia go into negotiations/discussions with the EU when it is 100% guaranteed that Poland and the Baltics will veto any draft treaty outlined?
With the U.S, we know we can talk business as we have a history of inking treaties with them (although they pull out sometimes), there is a consistent track record to agree on things. With the EU however, there is no common position on anything, from security, energy (some want Nuclear, some want gas, some even want coal!), so there’s no point discussing a unified agreement with them.
US is better in defending Europe then actual Europe
France and Germany proposed to meet with Russia and it was not accepted by the council.
https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210625-eu-leaders-reject-france-germany-proposal-for-summit-with-putin
They can all fuck off out of Europe! Im sick of this. Were not a russian+american war playground.
This is what you get when you decide to not take your responsibility on your own security and shift that burden to the US. If you want a seat on table, do not ask for it, earn it.
EU needs nuclear umbrella that is independent of USA and of any single member state to prevent the scenario of being left without one. Also update the nuclear doctrine to match one of Russia. MAD deterrence protecting EU member states is becoming an absolute necessity thanks to a certain megalomaniac imperialist on a power trip. Only way to guarantee peace and safety in Europe now.
Russians know that EU politicians follow orders from White House so it would be pointless to have them taking part in these discussions.
That is because they don’t see Europe or Europeans as equals or people with independent mindset, they dont respect Europeans.
Bruh
Doesn’t hurt to have a reality check every once in a while.
This title is highly missleading. There will be MANY EUROPEANS present representing their Nato countries. What the headline should say is that there are no European Union representatives present. Massive difference.
Remember U.S. discussing Afghanistan’s fate with Taliban without Afghanistan’s government? Pepperidge Farm remembers.
as Victoria Nuland once said
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5n8UbJ8jsk
Well maybe if you guys as a collective wanted to idk, not freeload off the US security umbrella, then maybe you’d get a seat at the big boy table. Rather than stuffing your faces with the Gerber mushy baby food in your high chair crying to mother Russia.
Because Eastern Europe trusts the US over Germany/France regarding Russia, for better or worse.
Is not a surprise, Russia still stuck in the 1970s, thinking it’s a superpower and equal to the USA (while only have a GDP of Italy and a few thousand nukes).
The second to last thing Russia wants to do is to treat Europeans as parties to discussions like this.
Of course the last they want is for the EU to get its game together and have a military which is reflective of its industrial and economic clout. But they way it treats the EU, it’s actions on its borders, will, like so much of Putin’s policies, create the very scenario that he tries to avoid (eg drive Eastward expansion of NATO by annexing countries, hacking and bullying them).
Russia is concerned over the amount of American forces in Europe. I don’t see how someone else should have a say in that given that they already have permission from the host countries. America is deciding what risks it is willing to take.
Munich Argeement Vibes
We’re gonna make make our own Security. With blackjack. And hookers!
In fact, forget about the Security and the blackjack!
Aaaah screw the whole thing…
Ask yourselves. What is the game-changing geostrategic event of the last few months that could explain Putin’s attitudes now? Why did he not push more for Ukraine when he had a favorable Trump at the White House? Why only now?
For me, it could be that the game-changing event was the Afghanistan withdrawal. This is when Russia probably fully understood that the US pivoting to China was not some kind of dumb slogan but an actual process sanctioned by both sides of the American political spectrum from Obama to Trump and eventually Biden.
The Russians saw it. They saw that the US were committed enough to leave the British behind in an open field, so to speak. They also saw that they were OK to screw the French and their Australian contracts only to speed up their redeployment towards the Indo-Pacific. And eventually they saw that Eastern Europe was still not grasping that this strategic shift was happening, with Ukraine, Poland still relentlessly hoping for more American involvement when only less was to be expected.
So Putin saw this as an opportunity. He would claim that his fears come down to another NATO expansion while in reality he is fully aware of that alliance losing some priority in the American strategic think tanks. And this is why he refused the Europeans take part in the negociations he triggered, in my opinion.
His game is to hopefully talk or seduce or trick the Americans into what they would do regardless, but only faster. And that is disengaging from NATO while pivoting to Asia.
He knows Biden is not going to defend Ukraine more than through sanctions, and so he comes to the table with a grand NATO shrinking plan that doesn’t even allow for sanctions and goes beyond Ukraine. He pushes further than what he knows he will get eventually. But he cannot do that too openly, otherwise the Americans would feel wary they are making things too easy for him, so his public stance does not let know he understands NATO is bound to be less important and pretends the exact opposite, that he is still caught in an old fashioned vision of the world when NATO was growing. This tricks Western analysts prone to see him as just the typical delusional dictator while he might well be actually about to fully harvest the fruits of what is first and foremost an American policy, the pivot to China.
Russia is simply discussing its security with the immediate superior of Europe
Apparently the title is misleading but if it were true should we be complaining? Europeans don’t seem to be taking our mutual security very seriously.
What would happen if tomorrow a war broke out? Probably half the countries wouldn’t want to fight cause it isn’t safe, Germany would ask if a war with Russia might interfere with gas prices or Gazprom stock options, the Dutch government would veto any decision that could help Eastern Europe and the Bulgarian government would ask if they could get invaded first. We are a shitshow.
> Russia
> Without Europeans
Technically incorrect.
Yet again the problem is NATO dividing foreign policy ideas within the EU. The EU needs to be fully self-sufficient in terms of foreign policy and cut loose from the USA (but remain close allies, obviously). Only once we are responsible for our own defence will the internal discord cease. Because then we no longer have the luxury to see NATO as our main defence; we’d be forced to figure our own foreign policy out. I maintain that for the future it’s going to have to be a choice between continuing to lean on NATO or to become a fully self-sufficient global actor as the EU. NATO and EU cannot coexist imo. We’ll only ever get coherent foreign policy if we actually NEED it; i.e. only once we can no longer sit back and lean on US protection whenever we like. Why go through troublesome discussions about a common foreign policy if you can pick and choose between the EU and US?