Watch again: David Cameron testifies in House of Lords as he urges Hamas to accept ceasefire deal

Watch again: David Cameron testifies in House of Lords as he urges Hamas to accept ceasefire deal

we’re having uh in public uh it’ll come cover a range of following policy topics um it will be streamed live on the parliament website and a transcript will be taken and we’ll send you a copy of the transcript afterwards uh in case you need to make some small Corrections can I remind members um that if they have any interests pertinent to uh their questions to declare them uh and I should mention my wife as a shareholder BAE Systems um I just very quickly we we don’t have much time there may be a division if there’s a division uh during this meeting um I’ll adj for 10 minutes and if we could go through the vision lobbies as quickly as possible and come back without talking to too many people that would be great um and I will I’m afraid for and SE I may have to interrupt you if in order to get uh everyone the chance to ask a question um but as I say we’re very grateful for you coming and we appreciate uh you are very busy so uh we’re going to start uh probably unsurprisingly with Israel and Gaza and I’ll ask lady Morris to ask the first question uh thank you Lord chairman um foreign secretary can I just Echo uh the welcome of the uh our Lord chairman and in doing so thank you in particular for all that you’re doing in Gaza um to secure a a a ceasefire that’s lasting the return of the hostages and to make sure that Aid gets to those who need it most my my question is going to be on the protection of Aid workers and in asking it I declare my interest as the prime minister’s trade Envoy to Jordan qate the occupied Palestinian territories a role which you kindly appointed me to in 2012 um as president of the Palestine Bish Business Council and president of Medical Aid for Palestinians foreign secretary at the beginning of this month uh the world was horrified by the killing of seven World Central Kitchen Aid workers in Gaza uh three of them British but in the last 7 months over 200 Aid workers have been killed and some 500 um have been injured and on the 18th of January a 1,000 smart bomb was fired at the residential compound of Medical Aid for Palestinians a British charity and uh the International Rescue committee a US registered uh uh nonprofit which was housing local uh staff and their families also uh the emergency team which included British doctors the coordinates of the house had been shared with the IDF and although these injury there were no injuries uh uh and although there were injuries luckily no one was killed an investigation by the Israeli government and the IDF have so far come up with six different explanations as to how this happened given the confusion in this can we have confidence in any internal investigations or should we be seeking independent inquiry well first of all I think you’re all right to be very concerned about this particular episode obviously the whole situation in gazer is is deeply concerning and and the loss of life deeply regrettable but but on this occasion um I raised I mean I I like you it was the 18th of January that it happened I think I raised it with prime minister Netanyahu on the 24th of January um we also I raised it with foreign minister with with Minister Gant on the 6th of March and we’ve never had a proper satisfactory explanation I that is very concerning because it goes to the bigger picture which is there hasn’t been um effective enough um arrangements with in Gara a deconfliction um so as you say on this occasion apparently the coordinates were given to the IDF so it shouldn’t have been hit and it was and we never got a proper explanation but your question is can we have any confidence else where um and I think what I would say is when it comes to the tragedy of the world Central Kitchen uh attack and loss of life the early signs are that it is a proper investigation two people have already been fired and the Israelis have admitted that there were both systemic and personal failures um and so I think that can give us um some hope that there’s going to be better action taken in future but what happen happened on the 18th of January was a sort of Warning Sign um and more should have been done when we raised it at the highest levels and said look this look look at what happened you need better Arrangements in place thank you um Lord wood thank you um forign secret I’d like to ask you about um UK support for unra um I believe the Andrew Mitch your colleague today announced that resumption of future funding support would be delayed another month um until further report has been issued and I think this will puzzle some people because previously it was the end of April uh which is today uh the Colona report um was sufficient for lots of our allies Canada France Finland Australia Sweden the EU to restore funding we haven’t done that why is the deadline changed when to be fair you’ve been a leading voice for putting pressure on Israel to be more Cooperative on humanitarian support we are not committing to Future funding for the main platform for that delivering that support why are we an outlier amongst our allies on this question I I don’t think we are I mean fair fair question I would say first of all we are continuing to keep the pressure on uh Israel uh we identified all of the bottlenecks that were in place you know why haven’t you opened ashon Port why haven’t you switched the water back on why aren’t we up at 500 trucks a day uh why aren’t there more Crossing points open for longer you know we’ve identified those and pushed and pushed and pushed um obviously President Biden was was very effective in getting pledges from the Israelis to do all those things and we now follow literally on a daily basis you know you know how are they doing towards those uh those those elements on unrea specifically when that happened and it was pretty horrific to know that people working for unra had taken part in the 7th of October attacks there were two report processes set up one was the Katherine Colona former French Minister really looking at the workings of unra and the sorts of things that needed to change and the second was the office of independent oversight o IO which was looking at the actual case itself and I think I said right back in the beginning I’d like to see how both reports are progressing before we recommit uh and I said that knowing that UNR actually had plenty of money to keep it going because it is a vital platform within Gaza there aren’t many other ways of getting Aid around as you know uh so I think that’s perfectly reasonable we haven’t particularly changed our deadlines we’ve said we want to see at least you know the early parts of of both reports but preferably both reports in full because I think in not just in the import in terms of doing the right thing but also in parliamentary terms I think a lot of colleagues in both houses will want to hear that unrra is properly policed properly run proper oversight vets its staff appropriately and what happened on October the 7th with participation couldn’t happen again so that’s the thinking okay thank you can I ask you about um uh an aspect of Israel’s prosecution of the war against tamas um there have been reports reports I should stress um at this stage of mass Graves at gaza’s NASA Hospital reports of bodies uh with women including women and children uh with hands tied or or buried with hospital gowns on now Jake Sullivan National Security adviser at the White House has called for investigation the UN commissioner for human rights has done so I wonder what uh foreign office investigations have revealed about this and what action you’re taking well we haven’t had any investigations we’re not capable of of doing that because we’re not in Gaza but we have said this needs to be investigated it’s extremely disturbing I’m very nervous about going beyond that because I think with some previous events in this conflict people have jumped to conclusions too quickly uh it’s had an enormous impact on on social media and elsewhere and I think we we need the Israelis urgently to get to the bottom of what happened before before going further uh Lord gra yes foreign secretary I know this is something that you’re well familiar with and have commented on but um uh we all know from experience I think that when this Dreadful War comes to a conclusion uh the chances are that the world Community will move on to the next Crisis uh and uh the fundamental problems of Israel Palestine uh will go on the back burner and will not be addressed and uh my question is about postwar reconstruction um and governance basically I mean what um what reassurance can you give us uh that uh serious thought and consideration is being given and plans put in place by the International Community to decide how Gaza is going to be governed uh and what where the money for the Reconstruction is going to come from well I I was in Saudi Arabia yesterday meeting with foreign ministers from Egypt Jordan Kata Bahrain Saudi Arabia um and I would say that actually there’s quite a lot of I’ve got quite a lot of confidence that this won’t slip off the front pages when this conflict is over because I think um all of the neighbors and um and Friends of Israel and Palestine I think come to the same conclusion which is of course we want to bring the conflict to an end we’ve got to deal with the the threat of Hamas you’ve got to have uh moves towards a secure Palestinian state but also a secure Israel and I I think so many parties to this understand that you know there is no long-term peace and security and stability in the Middle East without a solution to the the Palestinian question so if you look at for instance what what the Saudi what the Saudis are trying to do with this normalization deal with Israel that’s obviously a huge step for Saudi Arabia a big step for Israel but part of it would be um the creation of a Palestinian State and a horizon towards that basis again I think if you talk to the Egyptians and the jordanians and also if you talk frankly to other Europeans I think there’s an acknowledgement that you know huge efforts were made around the time of Oslo and and and all of those things which you’ll remember and then I think latly there was a sense that it was just too difficult and it couldn’t get done and uh we should focus instead on you know getting Aid to the Palestinians and all the rest of it and actually without solving this problem we’re never going to get the long-term peace and security we need so I I have some confidence that actually there’s there’s fresh commitment to try and get this sorted from all the friends of of of the region um on the issue of reconstruction I think what has to come first is trying to build up the concept what happens after the conflict ends which is what we were talking about yesterday how do you build up the new Palestinian Authority the technical government they’ve created how do you get it back into Gaza having got it back into Gaza how do you uh help it with the Reconstruction work how do you deal with the issue of security on the day one after the war is over I think all of those things um need to be solved and it’s it of course everyone’s thinking we’re already talking to people about reconstruction and who pays them for what and all the rest of it but I think it’ be quite hard to really progress those conversations until people know the war is over who’s running Gaza how is it working uh and the rest of it but a lot of work is going into that and but so much as well is invested in a two-state solution uh I I can’t remember how many foreign secretaries of both parties have that’s the get out of jail free card almost isn’t it to say we want a two-state solution now obviously recognizing Palestine is absolutely fundamental to that um but I uh I I just wonder I don’t be too pessimistic but this committee seven years ago did an inquiry into the two states into the Middle East and it said on its current trajectory the Israeli Palestinian dispute is on the verge of moving into a phase where the two-state solution becomes an impossibility and considered no longer viable by either side the consequences would be grave for the region you right seven years ago well I think you were right there you know and also I mean reinforce that first of all it it was getting harder because of the settlement building in Israel and so by Israel in the in the West Bank and so technically creating the Palestinian state has got harder and we have to think about that but also so while I support the Abraham Accords which was um a number of Arab states normalizing their relations with Israel that was a positive step forward but I think some people looking at that thought oh well we can sort of create peace between the Arab world and the Israeli world without fixing the Palestinian problem and I think that was a mistake you you have to fix the Palestinian problem um now it’s got harder but it’s not impossible and so we have to use the the horror of what’s happened to try and push forward uh this agenda and and I think as we do so I think there can be a tendency to think that recognition sort of brings about the state it doesn’t I mean recognition is an important part of helping to give the Palestinians a perspective towards statehood but it doesn’t create a state just by everybody recognizing it you’ve got to you know set out the things that actually create a state a a government it’s its ability to govern um agreement in some way with the Israelis about their security because of course the two-state solution can’t happen unless the Israelis feel secure in their own state so all these things are linked but I I would say there’s more purpose behind it than for a while and and we mustn’t miss this opportunity staying in the same region uh but intimately connected lady Crawley you’ve got a question thank you chair foreign secretary good to see you for so so much uh of the instability in the world leads back to Iran uh and its proxies uh and you yourself said in uh the Lords in in this house on the uh 5th of March that you couldn’t recall such a dangerous time in international Affairs uh in your political career now we welcome uh the government’s emphasis in the new um sanctions against Iran on targeting threats on on UK soil on uh contravening shipping on the Iranian drone program we welcome that but many of us AC cross party both within Parliament and outside remain perplexed as to why the government is still refusing to prescribe the Iranian Revolution regard guard as a terrorist organization you’re a very active foreign secretary you know that the irgc uh is the Leading Edge of both internal repression and external violations against Israel against Arab states against Western interests in that part of the world and yet despite that and allies of ours having a different view um there’s a reluctance in the government to move against the I let let me answer that very directly um all of the things we need to do to put pressure on Iran and to make sure that where they act illegally are we can act against them are in place through our sanctions regime that we have enhanced and we’ve sanctioned the irgc in its entirety and when I asked law enforcement police intelligence service and others is this extra step of prescription necessary in order to take further action against these people when they do the things that we disapprove of the answer is no and and there’s a disadvantage to be frank about it from prescription which is it would effectively end I think diplomatic relations and while our diplomatic relations are pretty tur and I say that with meaning as someone who’s had regular conversations with the Iranian foreign minister we are actually able to have that conversation and when it comes to trying to stop the escalation of the conflict when it comes to delivering a very direct message to the Iranians put it in the most blunt way I can I want to have that conversation myself I don’t want to ring up my French counterpart and say could you message the Iranians with this message that’s I think that is not in Britain’s interest that wouldn’t strengthen our approach in many ways it would weaken it um because you’ve got even with countries you disapprove of and dislike and see as a threat you need at some level those diplomatic relations to deliver the message to hear the answer and go back again with another message sometimes I find with countries that don’t have diplomatic relations with Iran they send a message to the Iranians and the Iranians then sometimes ring me up and say what do you think they meant I don’t want to be in that position I want to have that very direct conversation but I completely agree with the premise of your question about the dangers that we face and this is not a question of facing dangers you know in Gaza or in Ukraine although that’s happening think about in our own country in the last few months we’ve had the the appalling situation of China spying on our elect Al commission and uh cyber attacks on members of parliament we had the situation just a few days ago of what is alleged to be a Russian attack sabotage attack on a warehouse in uh East London and of course we have had a situation with Iran where they were effectively paying thugs to try and kill people that work for Iran TV so you know if you want a picture of the dangers in the world you don’t have to look around the globe you can look right here at who is attacking us and that’s why when you add up all the things the government’s done the National Security Act so we can prosecute um ESPN more effectively the National Security investment act so we can be more careful about who invests in our infrastructure the forthcoming foreign interest registration scheme so actually uh we can um have a better idea of what other countries might be doing in this country the Boost we’ve given to on our intelligence services to gchq to MI5 to Sis um and the sanctions regime that we put in place Ian it’s the busiest bit of the foreign office I can tell you at the moment they’re working around the because when they’re not sanctioning Russians they’re sanctioning Iranians or they’re sanctioning people from Bellas or elsewhere so hardening our security system right across the pieace because of the threats we face right here at home demonstrates that security is the most important thing we need right now thank you um we’re going to move away from uh Israel and Gaza um to another difficult part of the world uh Lord Robertson who’s here um foreign secretary my my interests are I’m a senior coun with the Coen group and I’m chairman of the ID Group which is the friends of North Macedonia um so I want to uh ask you about the Western Balkans and I think this is a week where uh the news is particularly Bleak I think the uh UN General Assembly uh is this week going to be uh discussing seich and the genocide there and this is leading um Serbia to pretty openly ferment trouble inside Bosnia and heroina uh and giving irresponsible and quite probably illegal say uh support to separatist elements in Republica SSA so what I wanted to ask you was that don’t you think it’s time that uh NATO and the European Union and ourselves in particular intervened boldly and uh firmly to defend the uh the data agreement well I I do fundamentally I do I mean I think it’s extremely depressing that you’re right I mean it’s um Serbia and the Republic Sera are launching a campaign against the resolution that’s being put down and they’re effectively denying that Trea was an act of genocide and they’re labeling suggestions otherwise is anti-serb and Russia has called for a UNC debate United Nations security Council debate today in which it will claim that the resolution is somehow an attack on dayon uh and an attack attack on the settlement and I think you know all of us who remember shreit I mean it it was um genocide it was an appalling event one of the worst things we’ve seen on our continent in the last few decades and so the UK will be voting for The Resolution will be speaking up for it and we’ll be calling out those who oppose it um and I think that’s part of Defending Dayton defending the situation that’s in place and trying to make sure I mean ultimately if you stand back what are we trying to do in the western Balkans we’re trying to give these countries the chance of stability of growth and prosperity and a western Euro Atlantic European perspective if that’s what they choose and and that is um you’ll know him well um Stuart Peach who was um Deputy um chairman of the military committee correct uh you know does such a good job because actually is one of those areas you really need a a an Envoy because he ABS scoots around from prime minister to president and back again uh in order to do exactly as you suggest yeah but I’m I’m suggesting to you that we perhaps need to do more we have reduced the the initial deployment to Bosnia was 65,000 way back and year on year as progress has been maintained we’ve reduced it now to you for uh where we don’t even play a part and this committee made a recommendation that perhaps we should be considering that but you don’t we don’t you think that we should perhaps be a bit more robust in what we do very good point I would say so so far um as well as going to north bedonia um I’ve been to Kosovo I’ve spent some time with K4 and I came back from that and contacted the NATO SE gen and said I think we needed to do more on K4 it needed to be stronger and Bolder we needed as you remember to take the um restrictions off some of the um different troops from different nations that they that they have there on efor and and Bosnia we’re not part of it I think you might well be right that it should be boosted but that’s a matter for the European Union to to think about I think there’s a strong case and St Peach that thinks there’s a strong case for boosting it we don’t take part not out of any um we we sort of think our role in the Balkans is obviously to talk to everybody but our military role is focused on K4 um I think the disadvantage of joining in with you4 as a third country is that you you can take part in many countries do but you’re not involved in the design of the mission so it’s a slightly less satisfactory situation than being in a NATO Mission as we are in K4 but I mean I’ll I’m happy to talk to you more if you think that there are more things we can do um we’re concentrating quite a lot on the economic support we give on the counter narrative to the Russian poisonous um messages that are being spread on the political Horizon for those countries and and uh the work in NATO but very happy if there’s more things you think we should be doing very happy to to listen don’t you think that on you4 I’m I’m I’m a bit skeptical that I I would rather you know we’re going to make a contribution let’s do it in K4 where we can do it properly rather than you for on that subject Lord SS thank you uh foreign secretary um I know that you agree that the this is further to George Robertson’s question that you agree that the foundation of peace and security is deterrence um but will you agree as you just have done again that we must do what we can to deter the threat of aggression or violent secession in Bosnia without which frankly there is no space whatever for political maneuver and settlement and just the question of what you could do I I I heard you say you’re going to that the Britain will vote at the UN in the appropriate manner of course but would you also agree that perhaps it might be helpful if you and your European and American and our American Partners issu a statement expressing absolutely unwavering support for Bosnia and hurts the governor’s territorial Integrity sovereignty and multi-ethnic character and the imposition of sanctions to address any any anti-at actions I think that’s a I mean we often do do statements um either through the G7 or sometimes through the the Quint um the five European key key countries we we can do that and do do that and I think that’s a very good suggestion and be no doubt we absolutely support uh bosnia’s territorial integrity and as you say the multi-ethnic nature of that country’s makeup and also its its European Horizon which it has made a very clear decision towards and we call out uh the work of dodic and others who who try to um uh play a line influence and I’ve also have very Frank conversations um with the serbs I’ve now met president vukic twice uh and had Frank conversations with him about what they’re doing in the region and the important of respecting um other countries and their their their Sovereign choices thank you um I wonder if you could help me um and help us with wiing an inquiry which mainly relates to defense and the uh influence of uh Ukraine uh War but I wondered if you could let us know what your assessment is of the role of diplomacy and UK diplomacy uh throughout the war in Ukraine and um what the lessons are um that the government has drawn from its diplomatic engagement to date that’s a very broad question um I mean first of all I think I mean it predates me but I think the way the UK got behind zalinski and Ukraine was absolutely magnificent uh was the right thing to do Britain and I think got a still gets a lot of credit for it uh when you go to Ukraine and you you meet people they say you know you’re our number one supporter you say no no surely America you’re not no no you’re number one because you were here first and you helped us when we most needed it so there’s the military aspect to it but I would argue The Diplomatic aspect is very important you obviously foreign secretaries always say that but I mean you’re trying to Ghana the greatest possible support and I think the NATO foreign ministers the G7 foreign ministers everything we do if I look at my list of five priorities for my job you know priority number one is Ukraine um and that tips over into quite military issues because of course the specific campaigns are things like you know International agreement to use the immobilized Russian assets we’re making good progress on that secure additional military supplies for Ukraine and stimulate UK and European Defense industrial production I think good progress on that and driving progress towards Ukraine’s um Euro Atlantic um integration and again we’re making progress with that so I think you know trying to build the coalition backs Ukraine across Europe across NATO uh across the United States and Canada that is a very big feature for us and one of the things I’ve tried to do is uh repeatedly go to the United States and talk with the United States um senators and Congress um uh representatives and also meet with with everyone I can including the former president um uh former president Trump to Bang the Drum and make the case that this is about you know their security as much as it’s about European security so I think diplomacy does play a big role Ukraine is fortunate in having an excellent foreign minister in Demitri kba who works incredibly hard at you know again looking around Europe where are their spare Munitions where are their air defense systems where are there’s additional and you know and lobbies all of us hard me in particular say come on you said you’re going to help let’s get out there and try and get these Bulgarian missiles or those Russian those Romanian bullets or what have you so I think the is we can be effective if we work in all these forums um and we’ve got to continue to do so good thank you very much um lady cousins um foreign secretary thank you I want to ask about the BBC World Service um I know from answers you’ve given on the floor of the house that you agree that the world service is a unique soft power asset would you also agree that if the current review of the world Service uh of the BBC rather leads away from the license fee that the foreign office needs to rise to the Challenge from the director General and resume 100% of the funding for the World Service rather than risk seeing its content and its scope and its impact inevitably suffer if it has to compete inside a funding model outside of the license fee when what it really needs is the budgetary res resilience to respond flexibly to geopolitical shifts the yes okay I’ve got sorry keep going I just want to tack on one bit perhaps you please could tack on to your answer to that question um an update for the committee on what if any progress has been made towards establishing or um a BBC Albanian service which was one of the recommendations that this committee made in our recent western Balkans uh report but to which you gave a rather vague and open resp response um in your letter to us right um on the the I mean on the basic issue is is the BBC World Service incredibly important and should we continue to have it funded at a good and hopefully growing level yes now I I would argue as I did on the floor of the house I think there’s a perfectly good argument to say something from the license fee paays something from the government is a fair way of doing it because I think license fee payers um get something out of the World Service I do when Radio 4 goes off at night and the World Service comes on I I I leap for Joy um well I don’t because I’m hopefully trying to go to sleep but you know what I mean it’s a brilliant service we we we get to access it and also I think the BBC has some advantages by running the World Service there’s some crossover between that and the the domestic service so I think the idea of funding out of two PS is good no I don’t know what’s going to happen to the license fee I I’m quite oldfashioned I actually think the license fee Works quite well um and we’ll continue to work well probably for longer than lots of people think um because actually it’s a universal service we all use it to to a greater or lesser extent um when you look at all the Alternatives there are lots of disadvantages so I’m quite a sort of license fee fan in an oldfashioned way and so I I but the answer to the question is we must go on however it’s funded it must go on being funded at a generous level and in this contested competitive world uh there’s a good argument for saying that we need more um independent respectable uh media uh in this space now on the Albanian service I’ve looked at this again I mean ultimately it is a decision for the BBC World Service rather than for me the only thing I’d say is you know Albania is now a country you know on the brink of joining the European Union it’s a NATO Ally I mean it’s its sort of orientation um in that direction is conf if I if I was running the BBC I might be thinking well actually what there are countries that are more in a more difficult situ take mova I was meeting with the foreign minister today you know country that is really trying um to be Western orientated and fight corruption and be a good democracy and a transparent country with a you know and all the rest of it you sort of there I think there are other cases where you can see the need um and those are the sorts of questions that the foreign office in its work with the BBC has to think about thank you um Lord Bruce we will’ll start we may have a vote coming up but thank you can I turn your attention foreign secretary to Africa um and can we take as a given that um the particularly the aid in development budget for Africa has been pretty decimated over the last four years we did a report four years ago in which we made a number of recommendations and the government gave a robust response about the importance of Africa but in ity whereas 4 years ago we were spending 3 billion in Oda in Africa last year it was 925 now I know you put it back up to 1400 million I welcome that but billions have not been spent and will’ll never be spent I’ve given you we’ll give you a comprehensive answer when we get back we’ll ajour for 10 minutes and if you can get 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proceeding is currently suspended the proceeding is currently suspended the proceeding is currently suspended good um online Lord Bruce was going to talk about AF thank you first of all can I declare my interests as a an adviser to daai Who deliver development programs the UK and other donors and also a mentor with the Westminster foundation for democracy on parliaments most recently in the Solomon Islands which has just had a rather interesting election yes um but on on the subject of Africa um if we take as a given there’s been dramatic cut in our presence but it’s coming back a lot of damage and disruption has been done so can I ask you how you going to rebuild those relationships both in terms of our development priorities and our diplomatic engagement given the increasing influence of China and Russia which have got to the point where France has almost been kicked out of its former interests and the United States and Russia is moving in in a very malign way what are we doing to make sure that the relationships which have been damaged with our partners are restored and recovered and that they have confidence that we will work with them uh rather than undermine them because I have to say a lot of resentment was caused by the dramatic cuts that took place I I’d say a couple of things first of all we we do have very good and long-standing relationships with a lot of African countries that we’ve helped over many years second point is as you said the funding has recovered quite a lot over the last year and actually in the unad world investment report 2023 named the UK as the largest investor in African countries supporting more than 2.4 billion in direct investment in the continent um and if you take you know the picture last year to this year Somalia an increase from 90 to 130 Ethiopia 89 to over 200 Nigeria 72 to 120 you know Britain is back in Africa helping with these key partners and key is level it was 5 years okay I’m I’m not denying as I said very um openly in the in on on on the floor of the House of Lords you know 0.7 came down to 0.5 which which was not my policy but I’ve come in and I’m working with the the government to improve matters and at the same time we had this big uh influx of um uh of of refugees and it’s perfectly right within the rules to spend odor on that it’s a big fiscal shock to the country when something like that that happens so we’re building back from that position and we’re doing so with a very clear strategy of how we best help and that is to recognize that of course we still see the need for aid but many African countries also want to see an expansion of the multilateral development Banks uh and we’re seeing that with the extra Capital we’re putting in and the fact we’re getting them to stretch their balance sheets many African countries want to actually see you know Equity invested they want risk Capital going into businesses and bii I would argue British International Investment formerly Commonwealth Development Corporation is best-in class is doing a fantastic job again is expanding and focusing on um State fragility and then I think going to your point about you’ve got the China issue and the Russia security issue I would argue we’re addressing both of those with the China lending issue that’s what bii is an alternative to and the multilateral development bank’s an alternative to and on the Russia security issue I think it’s a very important thing for people involved in development like yourself to recognize sometimes we’ve said when it comes to our own country security is the number one priority the most important you can have you don’t have anything without National Security and then when we try and help countries in Africa you know there are all sorts of other agendas all vitally important from education and water and food and medicine and all the rest of it but actually perhaps we’ve underinvested in helping countries with their own security we need to think as we help other countries in the way we would want to be helped ourselves um so I think those agendas can all help but I would say with Minister Mitchell back in charge of development uh with a solid 0.5 with the work we’re doing with bii with our white paper on development Britain is back doing good work in Africa and winning friends and influencing people quick why do we cancel the Africa investment Summit um we had a slight Summit overload to tell the truth um uh we’ve got this big EPC Summit which is over 50 heads of state that’s happening in July uh you’ve got European elections taking place which don’t affect us most mercifully but does affect a lot of other uh countries we were sandwiched between a very important uh conference in Rwanda and there was another one somewhere else it just became what was it Nigeria it was very difficult to get the dates fixed and we just couldn’t do everything and so we decided let’s do the EPC and do a lot of the African investment work by actually I’m going to be making a visit there uh in a month or so going directly to the countries and talking to them thank you um lady Fraser thank you um foreign secretary um baroness Corley reminded us that you have said that this there’s never been such a dangerous time in international relations and I want to thank you for the surging that you’ve done and the energy you have brought to to the role but I’m interested I’m delighted that you mentioned you have your list of um priorities and I think that the committee would like to to know how how are you setting your priorities are you making best use of local knowledge and intelligence and do you think our defense policy is still aligned with our foreign office priorities well first on your last Point uh I think the the move by the government to say uh we’re going to go from 2% to 2 and a half% % in relatively short order you know by 2030 I think is hugely important I think it’s great to the credit of prime minister the chance of the defense secretary that they’ve taken that step it means there are other things we won’t be able to do but it’s absolutely the right priority and so I think if you combine the sort of hardening of our security I spoke about earlier with the 2.5 you can see a very clear government agenda saying National Security comes first it’s a dangerous world we need to protect ourselves better and so I think the alignment is is extremely good um in terms of setting priorities I mean it’s difficult this because of course the whole point about the foreign Commonwealth and development office is you know you got to deal with everything in the world and things can pop up without you uh foreseeing them but I think the clear priorities of saying number one is Ukraine it is the thing that most affects our security we have to make sure that Putin does not succeed um for their good but also for our own the secure and stable Middle East being the second because it’s not just important in itself it spills over into our own country our own domestic um situation the third I’ve said is enhancing security and that is about working together with the ministry of Defense the home office about thinking about how we enhance our own security and it’s also making sure the home the foreign office is playing its role in this whole debate about immigration and how do we return people who are here legally how do we use some of our diplomatic tools um to make sure that countries are playing Fair with us when it comes to returning people that have no right to be here now the foreign office in the past has sometimes been a little bit nervous of that you know we have our you know our arrangements with foreign countries we don’t really want to compromise those by getting into the Dirty Work of returning people who shouldn’t be here I we don’t not anymore we are absolutely part of Team um uh Team immigration if you’re not if you don’t have a right to be here you shouldn’t be here and we will return you and we’ll use the weapons we have to make sure your country um puts Arrangements in place fourth is is promoting International Development um and addressing the critical Global challenges like climate change and fifth I was very keen to make sure that foreign office is absolutely part of the prosperity agenda that we are doing everything we can to attract investment into Britain so while I was in Saudi Arabia yesterday I took time to meet with a whole series of businesses that either have invested in Britain or thinking of investing in Britain I think we have a key role in that so how do we work all these priorities well s Philip has very kindly given me um SRO for each of the campaigns were running um so right within the environment we’ve decided to Target the issue of getting Finance for um small island developing States um I think they’re suffering the most a lot of them are members of the Commonwealth uh it’s a commonwealth conference year it’s also the year when the small island developing states have a conference and so I think it’s the right environmental campaign for us to pick so we have someone helping me with each of these campaigns under the five headings and hopefully we can make some progress on it if we are energetic and um surging lordon my notifiable interest is as a defense advisor to a company called Tes UK which you may have heard of very familiar with them two questions both on um defense money um the second one I’ll I’ll touch on the very welcome prime minister um announcement of last week and I’ll come to that second first can I ask you to be a bit reflective on perhaps the last 15 years you as many as any UK politician will know the degree to which over 15 years we’ve disinvested to an extent in defense and in doing so we’ve we’ve hung on to the sort of the glossy stuff the the tmic symbols of international Authority but we’ve hollowed out our conventional resilience and therefore reduced our deter posture can I can I interrupt you there let’s do the second question second I just although we work together very well in government and I respect you I completely disagree right the first thing is when we got into government in 2010 you shave up my um okay we’re going to adjourn for hopefully less than 10 minutes um I’m not the proceeding is currently suspended the proceeding is currently suspended the proceeding is currently suspended the proceeding is currently suspended the proceeding is currently suspended the proceeding is currently suspended the proceeding is currently suspended the proceeding is currently suspended the proceeding is currently suspended the proceeding is currently suspended the proceeding is currently suspended the proceeding is currently suspended the proceeding is currently suspended the proceeding is currently suspended the proceeding is currently suspended the proceeding is currently suspended the proceeding is currently suspended the proceeding is currently suspended the proceeding is currently suspended the proceeding is 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currently suspended the proceeding is currently suspended the proceeding is currently suspended the proceeding is currently suspended the proceeding is currently suspended the proceeding is currently suspended the proceeding is currently suspended the proceeding is currently suspended the proceeding is currently suspended the proceeding is currently suspended the proceeding is currently suspended the proceeding is currently suspended the proceeding is currently suspended the proceeding is currently suspended the proceeding is currently suspended the proceeding is currently suspended the proceeding is currently suspended the proceeding is currently suspended the proceeding is currently suspended the proceeding is currently suspended the proceeding is currently suspended the proceeding is currently suspended the proceeding is currently suspended the proceeding is currently suspended all I want to say answering a question I haven’t yet finished you know forecast budget deficit 11% of GDP there is no defense and security without Economic Security and we made the choice to deal with the deficit get the economy growing and the results of that were very successful and as part of that we did make some difficult choices very painful choices you know to scrap Nimrod after all the years and the money and everything else to have you know several years of a aircraft carrier Gap we made choices I I can’t tell the agony for me of saying that the sea harriers had to go when I think of the amazing things they did in the Forkland we made choices the result of those choices and the result of then a well-funded defense budget always over 2% of GDP means that during those 14 years I won’t give you the full list although I might we have you know therefore committ to aircraft carriers the type 23s the type 24s the hunter killer submarines think of the Air transport we’ve you know the a400m the new shinuk um helicopters the c17s um think about okay not always the most successful um uh procurements but the mobility for and fighting ability for for the Army across all the services a massive renewal program because we sorted out the economy we made difficult choices and then we invested I mean look look per if I now now you can come question is I recognize all those difficult choices and I was part of them what I’m asking you is on reflection though to accept the fact that the diminution of warfighting resilience and therefore conventional deterence is at least a part of the reason that Russia invaded firstly Crimea and then Ukraine it was a failure of conventional deterrence in Europe no no because you know Putin invaded Ukraine in 2014 because he thought he could get away with it because everyone was distracted by what had happened in in keev um and because NATO because Ukraine wasn’t a member of NATO there wasn’t it wouldn’t matter how many weapons the rest of Europe had that wasn’t going to deter Putin um if Ukraine had been a me made a member of NATO which I supported in 2008 when I was leader of the opposition different story so I don’t accept that the you can make all sorts of arguments why we should have spent more on defense but the argument that had we spent more on defense Putin wouldn’t have played around in Ukraine in 2014 invaded in 2022 not the case I’m surprised that you put such a low price on conventional deterrents when one of the main arguments I put a huge price on that is now declared is going to go on building back the resilience and conventional deterrence capable of NATO I’m a massive move on to no no believe me I’m a huge fan of conventional deterrence I absolutely believe it to my to my marrow but the way deterrence needs to work is you have to have both the deterence and the alliance to deliver it and that’s what NATO and our commitment to Nato is is all about the tragedy for Ukraine is it wasn’t in NATO and and uh you know and and I think Putin did what he did because in 2008 when he did effectively the same to Georgia the Western response was so weak and it was so weak not in terms necessarily o of military action I don’t think that would have been appropriate but there were no consequences for Putin of his invasion second the second moving on to the second question the the the most welcome uplift of however mathematically it was derived and there is some can I say some economic commentary to suggests it’s a little bit of a managed figure but I will accept 75 billion over the next six years but there will be some somewhat cynical observers will say that it is a touch late on Parade firstly it’s late on pray because as everybody recognizes this is an absolutely critical year for Ukraine during which actually what we are in the process of giving might not make it in time but also in truth um only the 500 million package for Ukraine is the only thing that is the uplift to the defense budget over the next 12 months so in truth in the context of a 75 billion package there is only one 150th of it that is likely to be spent in the residual time frame of this government isn’t that a little slow well first of all I’m not putting a time frame on this government um let’s get that one absolutely clear before we start second of all what what the hang on hang on what the Prime Minister has said is that we are going to be spending three billion in Ukraine right if you add up the 500 and the 2.5 3 billion this year next year for as many years as is necessary you shake your head but I don’t think everyone has noticed that and it’s very important they do that is a multi-year commitment and I would argue that actually that’s the most important thing we can do I’m coming back to your argument about million this year next year starts in 20125 yes but so he’s what he’s announced is going from 2% to two and a half% um you know which I think is hugely welcome and I’m amazed given all the speeches You’ given about it you’re not jumping up and down with excit at 2 and a half% this is a government that’s actually delivering a really important pledge which I think the opposition will have to match and when it does we’ll be it’ll be a vitally important moment but when you’re spending you know 60 70 billion pounds on defense and you’ve got a crisis in Ukraine one of the most important things you can do is think what have I got in my locker that I can give to the ukrainians to help them in the fight and if anything I would argue the other way to to you and say we we could should try and do even more uh of things thinking what we got in our locker that we can give them because that’s where the fight is it’s sad it’s too late for conven with that you can see the sort of discussions we had within government they were always very robust and I think it’s important um uh Nick you know I I I respect very much your views but but I do think this is a big this goes completely off R I know uh you’ve got to get on some stage and I’m going to move on if that’s right because we’ve been interrupted quite a lot so can I ask um lady Crawley to ask very briefly her her question oh thank you thank you very much um bellarus um recently according to Reuters they’ve changed their um position as far as uh security is concerned and uh they have said the government they have said that um they would allow Russia to deploy dozens of tactical nuclear weapons on Belarusian territory should we dismiss this as propaganda or should we be pay pay attention I also wanted to talk about as you know the um uh the fact that several of us in the house are God Parents to Belarusian young political prisoners and what effect do you think um your sanctions government sanctions have had on the regime is it hurting them we have a number of questions I’ll be as brief as I can I mean first of all we’re aware of the comments made by President Putin saying that Russia’s deployed tactical weapons to to barus we at the vilia summit said that we condemn this announcement and entire encourag the entire International Community to do the same obviously we monitor the situation very closely um and it just underlines the importance of the not just the conventional deterrence we have but of the nuclear deterrence that we have uh in terms of B us more more broadly um we work hard to work with the opposition and I I met with Mrs tkos uh at the G7 foreign ministers meeting and to do what we can to sanction members of the regime for their behavior and as I say to to try and work with um the belarussian opposition to to Charter brighter future for the country um lady cousins thank you I just want to come back very quickly um on your answer about whether they should be a BBC Albanian service because you said that there were a number of other countries that might have a stronger case but the thing is it’s not about Albania it’s about Kosovo where most people speak Albanian so we’re not talking about Albania we’re talking about Albanian I completely the other answer I want you’ve come up with other question the other answer I wanted to give was to say don’t think the only thing the foreign office does when it comes to countering Russian narratives and encouraging free media is back uh the BBC World Service we do a lot we got a very big department now that is working with the covans and with the albanians and others on how do you counter the Russian narrative how do you take down the Bots how do you uh you know stop a lie before it’s halfway across the world and also what do you do to help train uh journalists and and uh stick stand up for for free media just to give you one example when you had the crocus Hall attack the other day um and the Russians tried it was obviously a uh is attack and the Russians tried to blame Ukraine and actually quite a lot of stuff appeared on the internet trying to blame the UK there were lots of Internet Bots with a sort of hand with a Union Jack around it pushing the terrorists towards the crocus Hall and that was you know brilliantly analyzed by all our stratcom teams but the real challenge is how do you stop that from happening even before it does how do you take down uh these many of them are fake accounts just pedling this stuff and I think so spending money on that is also part of what we do to encourage free media bearing in mind the value that we’ve had from BBC Serbia wouldn’t it be a good idea for you to give a bit more thought to how to sit BBC Albanian not Albania alongside that I will C certainly go certainly go with think about it we do a lot to help Kosovo i’ I’ve met with prime minister cty twice in the last six months and we do a lot to help them thank you um Lord wood the prime minister’s repeatedly said that he’s prepared to leave the ECR European convention on human rights if it interferes in its judgments with the Rwanda policy the foreign offic has always maintained internally and externally that that would diminish British influence if we left the ECR and put us alongside Belarus and Russia as the only European countries not it which side are you on in this debate the foreign office or the Prime Minister I’m on the country’s side um and on the prime minister’s side in that look you know we we we don’t think that membership of the ECR is inconsistent with the policy that we’re pursuing which I completely support and is necessary um but I’ve always said you know when the ECR sometimes does things that are you know against our national interests you should stand up and say so as I did with the issue of prisoner votes I think they completely wrong they were trying to insist that you know we had a duty to pass legislation in this house and you know that we had to give all Prisoners the vote and I think that was nonsense so we should stand up for our rights and stand up for our our democracy we had rights in this place including in This House Legislative rights long before the ECR even came into existence um so uh but I don’t think it’s necessary to leave and I I I I hope it won’t be necessary I know you have to go soon but lady Fraser you’ve got a very quick question very quick question um you’ve recently been to America we’re very glad that they have voted through their support for Ukraine are you able to give us some Topline thoughts on what you think our relationship what are your what are what is our relationship with America and what are the implications for the UK as we look forward over the next year or so I think the great thing about the special relationship is it is anchored in um you know quite deep partnership across lots of the military intelligence uh diplomacy National Security and so you know we’ve often had presidents with different views and prime ministers and presidents of different political Persuasions but the relationship has always been strong and that’s because it’s based on fundamental values of seeing the world in the same way and believing in freedom and democracy and the rule of law um and so we’ve been a very reliable partner to them and they’ve been a very reliable partner to us and I think that will continue uh obviously the Ukraine situation was worrying because you know the money wasn’t being voted through and uh the Republican Party um you know was was split and there are quite a lot of people arguing we must prioritize the southern border and all the rest of it and so trying to make the argument you know you don’t have to either either all you can have border security and National Security in fact it’s vital you have both um and I’m glad that argument won the day so I’m very confident going forward um as long as we keep investing in our defense assets and our intelligence assets and our diplomacy that will be a very good partner to the United States and there’s no doubt in my view that we amplify our strength and role in the world by having those strong alliances do you think we can continue to rely though on the American Military might in Europe I I think we can because ultimately um history shows so clearly that American disengagement in Europe um ends in in um a bad way and often ends in America having to come back in and pay a higher price in Blood and treasure than they would have done if they had never left so I think the his historical arguments on our side but I think we have a part to play in that in in saying we recognize that we must pay more for our defense and that’s why I in 2014 at the Cardiff NATO Summit say come on we’ve all got to do 2% and then I think there are only three countries that did and we’re now at sort of almost 20 out of 32 and with this new announcement of 2 and a half% I think Britain can be uh of course there are countries that spend more than 2 and a half% but amongst the big countries spending two and a half% in Europe I think it gives us a great leadership role to combine that military decision with the diplomacy uh of saying come on let’s more countries do more and that would encourage the United States to see that we are playing our part foreign secretary I I know you’ve got to go um thank you very much for coming we really appreciate it and Philip and not the head do much but we’re very grateful and I’m sorry we couldn’t ask you more things sorry about the votes I hope we’ve added a bit of time back in but um thank you exactly but thank you and and we’d like you to come back again very much the proceeding has ended

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