War journalist Alisa Sopova on Russia’s occupation of Ukraine | Planet America | ABC News
Elisa welcome good to have you here what is your current assessment of we’ve heard in recent weeks about Russia making advances in the hak area and and so on the sense that maybe some of that military aid that was delayed in America has been a little bit too late incoming what what are you hearing on the ground well so the way most experts talk about this war now it’s a war of attrition which means that if the war doesn’t end within several months it becomes not as much just about military tactics and strategy but about the economies of both countries and the kind of large scale management of being able to accumulate as many resources as possible for the next push and to deprive the other side of their resources so I generally hate to uh take this like God’s eye view you know top down view on the war but if we have to take that view it kind of reminds of a perfect you know chess tournament because each side as we’ve seen in the beginning each side takes a turn and everybody knows whose turn this is and then it takes some time to make the move and everybody is kind of watching and waiting for this move right so right now it’s Russia’s turn to take a to to make a move and everybody is watching and Russia is on the offensive and it’s moving a little bit I think also every time one side one side takes a turn there is um a lot of you know a lot of atmosphere in media about this side currently wiing mhm so when uh it was Ukrainian counter offensive last summer there was this expectation that Russia will fall and Ukraine will win and now when it’s Russia’s turn to to go for offensive there is this air that oh now Russia is winning but I think like on one hand it’s been very predictable because we know who is taking turns but on the other hand it’s been very unpredictable because every move doesn’t really end the way we expected to end in the beginning everybody expected Russia to just win immediately it didn’t then body expected Ukraine to win in the counter offensive it didn’t so maybe now now that when it’s Russia’s time to take to to make its move it does not necessarily mean that Russia is going to win the whole War obviously hope it’s not happening this way um but it’s hard to say how it will end so speaking of this uh of this war of attrition we can say that Russia does have advantage in it because Russia is just big it has more resources more people to throw into the battle and more territory so for example Russia managed to to produce um its own weapons because it can be far enough where Ukraine cannot reach it and also Ukraine has all restrictions on um shooting missiles to Russian territory while Russia can reach pretty much every Target in Ukraine so it’s it’s been much harder for Ukraine to establish production of weapons and Ukraine largely depends on its Western partners for that um so this is where we are now but where we will get from here nobody knows and I don’t know either right if you’re drawing an analogy with a chess a chess game where each one’s taking a turn that would suggest to me that you’re seeing this as as taking many years this this won’t be resolved in 6 months or in 12 months this might be 5 years this might be six years is that how you were saying it yes and I I I personally don’t think it will be resolved very soon or soon at all we’re two and a bit years since the the Russian invasion 10 years though since the Russian annexation of crimeia which I suppose really began this cycle of aggression what is your perception of how the Ukrainian people are feeling right now is the mood still one of defiance or are they feeling as though maybe sacrifices will need to be made to end this phase of the conflict which could mean giving up land in the East particularly so I think something that many people outside Ukraine don’t understand is that the deal of land for peace that is often offered suggested ukrainians should take that it’s really not on the table and it’s not it’s it’s non non viable deal not for Ukraine but for Russia because this is not land that Russia wants first of all the land that they take it’s mostly a scorched land that they burn to ground before they take it’s more of liability than a gain but even outside of that Russia has never been interested in some piece of Ukrainian territory Russia is interested in regime change in Ukraine in having Ukraine under its control and um so I myself come from the city of dank that has been occupied by Russia since 2014 and I know very well what it is like to live under under Russian control it’s it it can be most closely compared to living in North Korea or in the Soviet Union in its really bad times so basically for ukrainians it’s not really it’s not really peace it’s not really something to to go for um you know asking how you know and answering how ukrainians feel um it’s not my example I read it somewhere on my Facebook feed I don’t remember who of my friends in Ukraine wrote this I’m sorry if I’m citing it wrong but uh imagine that you wake up one day and you have some psychopath with an ex breaking into your apartment and first you are an adrenaline and you just manage somehow to protect your family you know and to kick out the psychopath you know with using whatever Furniture you know you can you can’t award him off but then imagine that the psychopath is breaking into your apartment every morning for two years and then you are you know you are doing something to keep him away but you feel really on the one hand you feel really desperate at that moment on the other hand you don’t know what you can do because when you call 911 which we can uh compare you know Ukrainian Western Partners to you know what you hear like maybe they came to save you a few times but what you keep keep hearing after those two years is that oh but um we have other things to do you know and we also don’t want to upset the psychopath even more because then he can come into our apartments and can you maybe do it by yourself a little bit longer and and all these kind of things and then the the suggestion that that we get is that oh maybe you can appease the psychopath if you allow him to leave in your hallway instead of coming from elsewhere so maybe if he doesn’t if he stays just on your hallway it will be less of a Hustle but is it really a solution to the problem to let the psychopath live in your hallway so you said that you lived in tetk for a while yes they what we often hear is that the Eastern parts of Ukraine are very Russian just how Russian are they well um so we have like in all wars and uh in every like in all these cases it’s very easy to become essentializing right and first to say that all Ukraine is United against Russia or to say that in Crimea or in dbas everybody wanted Russia there is a big diversity of opinions and positions everywhere in Ukraine including in dbas region when I’m where I’m from at the time when it first happened in the 14 the local population was very divided nobody measured it but just based on my experience I would say it was close to 50/50 they were Pro Russian and pro Ukrainian demonstrations that were taking place and pro Russian side of population had Russia back in them and pro Ukrainian side of population didn’t have really anyone back in them because for the for the West the whole thing basically only happened in 2022 back then we felt like nobody really outside of Ukraine or inside of Ukraine like the government in K was just in a mess after maidan trying to establish itself and everybody kind of didn’t really take it seriously and so we the pro Ukrainian side in dank we just felt like we were left alone it was just taken over and then we were just we just had to leave the city eventually because we started being arrested and and harassed and all that and so in a way the pro Russian side won and became more loud and became the one monopolizing the The Narrative and presenting themselves as if they only they represent that part of the country and I think that by repeating that we play into Russian propaganda saying that oh everybody in the NK wanted Russia that is that is not true Alisa what do you make of the pro-russian sentiment that seems to be coming increasingly popular in Republican conservative circles in the United States we’ve even had senators in the last week Tommy taberville saying America provoked Russia to invade Ukraine by trying to draw Ukraine into the Western sphere of influence and away from Russia and that we’re not doing Ukraine any favors by supporting them continuing a war that will just claim more and more Ukrainian as well as Russian lives what do you think is going on there and how suspicious are you of Russian influence over conservative politics in the United States now okay so first of all something I learned in this 10 years is that whatever is happening in Ukraine or elsewhere everybody in big politics Will just like interpret it the way that works for them so whether it’s it’s true to what’s on the ground or not it doesn’t really make a difference because you know it just been turned around you know in this way I think that generally um Russian not to say that Russia doesn’t try to mess with uh right-wing politics everywhere in Europe and America uh but I also don’t want to OV exaggerate this this influence because um I think they try but I don’t think they have as much of of an impact as many people would like to believe because I think for many for many Americans it kind of absorbs them of the responsibility to say that oh it’s uh it’s not people in our country it’s it’s Putin who who made Trump president in 2016 well guys maybe Russia tried to do something with that but I’m pretty sure Trump would win without Russia as well yeah I think it’s about taking responsibility I think Russia tries to influence this politics but I don’t think they have as much as much power or influence to to kind of um credit to give them too much credit for that do you think ukrainians feel betrayed by America’s Dilly dallying when it comes to support or do you think they’re just grateful for the support they’ve gotten to this point well I think it’s both of course they’re grateful for the support um also I think many ukrainians don’t like when the support is Being Framed as some kind of Charity because we should not forget that Ukraine gave up its nuclear Arsenal um in exchange for protection and they didn’t get us action 2014 and there is this kind of responsibility to actually support Ukraine and um I don’t know about betrayal I think ukrainians are still very hopeful but there is a lot of anxiety about about you know help coming too late or being not sufficient or being inconsistent this week president zelinsky’s term in office officially came to an end there are no elections though because well martial law is in place elections are not possible is that going to affect the sense of his legitimacy as president of Ukraine now now that he’s in this sort of post- elected period or are the Ukrainian people still firmly of the view that he’s the man to lead them at this moment of Crisis well I think zin’s legitimacy has suffered a lot recently but I don’t think it has much to do with the elections that cannot happen because uh ukrainians on the ground understand well that it’s close to or impossible let’s say to actually have elections under the situation and that trying to carry out election would probably make us more vulnerable so I don’t think this is the biggest concern but the problem with zinsky in my opinion is that um you know that the role of President is is not as much to like decide everything but to kind of be a symbol of the country and a symbol of the situation of the country and uh at the in the at the onset of the invasion when he remained in the office and when we managed to push Russians away from Kev he enjoyed tremendous popularity for what he did and since then things kind of went downwards and they didn’t work as well as ukrainians hoped for and a lot of the disappointment and um a lot of the fear and all the spect spectrum of emotions that ukrainians feel about that they are being projected rightfully so on the president so the worse things get the less popular Z linsk is and uh of course he also contributed to that with some policies that were not very popular and didn’t work very well uh one of them has to do with um actually with journalism and with mass media there is this this big problem that um all ukra independent Ukrainian TV channels were hered into something called United uh United Mar news Marathon at the beginning of the invasion that just um um has to show the same the same package of news uh basically controlled by state about what’s happening which made sense in the beginning of the invasion but by now it just deteriorated into this kind of low quality State propaganda and it’s not helping moral and it’s not helping anything and zilinsky is kind of standing firmly behind this policy and it’s not helping the other thing is um the mobilization um laws so under martial law in Ukraine uh men of fighting age are not allowed to leave the country and recently this law has been tightened even more so for example Ukrainian men who are already abroad now have no right for Consular services and cannot apply to renew their passports and so on and um and men are sometimes literally um caught on the streets you know and being mobilized and this has caused a lot of a lot of um dissatisfaction in the society so I guess it’s combination of um I mean it’s very it’s very complicated Topic in Ukraine now because on the one hand you have like like as a state you have to do this who is going to fight if all Ukraine if all men live and all that on the other and the and it’s hard to make every step right and appropriate and Democratic under under the martial law right like even the biggest democracies in the world were not so so big of democracies when they were at Wars but on the other hand of course people feel a lot of fear and anxiety and it adds to that soans it’s a combination of of you know just things not going so well being projected on him and some not very successful policies um he he did we’ve heard a bit in the American Media about corruption in Ukraine how big of a problem do you think it is well corruption is it’s not just a problem it’s kind of a part of Ukrainian reality it’s always been and it remains so I’m afraid that at this point uh corruption is becoming kind of a justification to not really help Ukraine you know and I think we should understand that these are two separate things yes there there is there is degree of corruption Ukrainian politics it’s gotten better actually compared to 10 years or what not ago but at the same time ukrainians are being really courageous and self-sacrificing and fighting and doing all that and we should separate these two facts facts because I think there there is a tendency to expect that the victim has to be perfect and always ways and highly moral you know and we and and then uh this victim deserves of help and empathy and everything only as as long as um as they uh maintain this like holy appearance so I often hear this Impressions from like my American friends and colleagues going to Ukraine and then coming back and saying oh my God I didn’t expect that but ukrainians like they actually actually I heard somebody making like homophobic remark how and we helping them like yes of course you’re helping them not because of homophobia or what not you’re helping them because they’re fighting the war you know and because we are unjust F unjustly um sorry I forgot this word because because we are under attack so um yes there is corruption in Ukraine uh and uh no I don’t think that it should impact the support to Ukraine um Ukraine should be supported because it fights this war not because uh because it has a perfect uh you know perfect um absence of homophobia and of um um and of because of perfectly liberal in all senses Alisa my final question is about how the future looks for the people of Ukraine given that in this period uh since Crimea happened a decade ago and since the invasion of Two and a bit years ago there’s also been a it seems from the outside a change in Ukrainian sense of self understanding of recent history including uh the the millions who died in the 1930s as a result of Russian Soviet policies to starve the people of Ukraine during the holid deore and so on there’s a a lot of reasons for ukrainians to hate Russians now whatever happens in the future you will you will be neighbors whether there is a pro-russian government in Ukraine or not what does that anger and resentment and knowledge of the persecution they have suffered at the hands of the Russians main for the Ukrainian people and their own future well I I can answer this question from two different positions you know as a private Ukrainian citizen positioned in time right now it seems like there is no way we can ever Rec reconciliate with Russia and it will be impossible to live next to each other anymore that’s what many ukrainians say um as kind of if I assume the position of an outside Observer you know and a iring scholar you know from the United States I would say that um let’s look at Europe they’ve been murdering each other for decades and look at them now they live perfectly well together right uh so um I I you know I’ve been exposed a lot to um former Yugoslavia it’s been just like 20 30 years and there is still a lot of tension but I went last summer to Croatia and there was just in my blog they were to tourists from all the former Yugoslavia countries getting drunk together every night being very happy and it seemed like there was like 90s never happened I know it’s not that it’s not true but but um it seems like it’s impossible to reconcile and then you look at examples like this and he see that sometimes it just takes a few decades and um and people manage to find especially in like next Generations of course it will help if something changes in Russia and um you know of course we all look at Germany you know and if Russia went through such transformation as Germany did of course that would help um many people say that um the for Russia the war with Ukraine could be what uh Algerian war was for FR for France you know that it could make them realize that um colonialism doesn’t work anymore and you should try to do something else so if such kind of big shift happened in Russia I think that would definitely help in the the future to for us to reconcile but I as I said again like as a private citizen I cannot imagine reconciliation as a kind of outside Observer looking at the history of other cases I see that it should be perfectly possible in theory that’s a big picture my my final question is about the end of the war now there’s obviously a worst case scenario which people would prefer to avoid but what the best case scenario like it’s I don’t think anyone’s expecting Ukraine to take over Russia what’s the what’s what’s the best case scenario for how this war ends in a way that’s positive for Ukraine well so Ukraine Ukraine’s idea of it has been the same from the beginning is that we want Ukraine to be in the same borders as it was before 2014 and it’s often described as some kind of unrealistic expectation but uh for me personally as somebody from danet and uh I’m not alone in this but there are several at least several million people like myself who who live or their families leave in the occupied territories this is not just a matter of Pride you know or making a big Point politically but it’s just a matter of being able to return to your home and live there so I think it is important for Ukraine to return to its to its borders of PR 2014 and to be able to exist there uh in those borders um with at least some degree of saf well atast so thank you very much indeed for having a fir side chat with us thank you thank you e
Russia’s occupation of Ukraine is like living with a “psychopath in your hallway” says war journalist Alisa Sopova.
Alisa spoke to Planet America during her visit to Australia as part of the Sydney Writers’ Festival.
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