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Tony Abbott PHOTO: Tam\u00e1s Gyurkovits\/Hungarian Conservative<\/p>\nHon Tony Abbott was elected as the 28th Prime Minister of Australia in 2013. He served as the member for Warringah in the Australian Parliament from 1994 to 2019. As the local MP, he was instrumental in the creation of the Sydney Harbour Federation Trust to preserve the natural and built heritage of his electorate. Prior to entering Parliament, he was a journalist with The Australian, a senior adviser to opposition leader John Hewson, and a director of Australians for Constitutional Monarchy. He holds degrees in economics and law from the University of Sydney, and in politics and philosophy from the University of Oxford. In 2020, he was appointed a Companion of the Order of Australia, and in 2022 he was awarded the Grand Cordon of the Order of the Rising Sun. He is currently a director of the Ramsay Centre for Western Civilisation, a visiting fellow at the Institute of Public Affairs and the Danube Institute, and a board director of FOX Corporation.<\/p>\n
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What is at stake in the Hungarian elections? How do you see it as a foreigner?<\/p>\n
Well, obviously I\u2019m looking at this from 10,000 miles away, but from where I sit, Viktor Orb\u00e1n has been a very significant global statesman. I always thought of Viktor Orb\u00e1n as, if you like, Trump with brains, someone who is not only an absolute, passionate nationalist, but is a deep thinker who doesn\u2019t just say the first thing that comes into his head. <\/p>\n
Now, that\u2019s not to dismiss President Trump, who is obviously a very significant president, but Viktor Orb\u00e1n has been Hungary\u2019s greatest modern leader. He\u2019s been a transformative Prime Minister. He has reminded the wider world that controlling immigration is not just about stopping illegal migrants, it\u2019s also about limiting the numbers so that your country can keep its culture. That\u2019s the difference, if you like, between Hungary under Orb\u00e1n and Australia under me. I stopped a wave of illegal migration by boats. Orb\u00e1n stopped a wave of illegal migration by land, a harder task\u2014not only that, he\u2019s managed to keep migration to Hungary under very strict control, because obviously, as a relatively small country, if Hungary were to host large numbers of migrants, the culture which has been nurtured and cherished by Hungarians for centuries would be of risk of disillusion in the kind of globalization which has taken place in so many other places. So, I think he\u2019s been very significant. Now, obviously he\u2019s already been in office for 16 years in this term. It\u2019s a long time.<\/p>\n
Does it work against him?<\/p>\n
The time factor is always significant, even with a very good government. But my hope is that Viktor Orb\u00e1n gets re-elected. I do think that it would be important for the succession to be sorted out at some point in the next term, because in the end no politicians go on forever.<\/p>\n
\u2018Viktor Orb\u00e1n has been Hungary\u2019s greatest modern leader. He\u2019s been a transformative Prime Minister\u2019<\/p>\n
You mentioned migration. And I would add three more aspects to the stakes in the elections: sovereignty, the gender issue, and the position on supporting Ukraine. What about them?<\/p>\n
As far as I can see it from afar, Europe works best when it is a loose partnership of proudly independent sovereign nations. And one of the reasons why I think the EU has sometimes got itself into trouble is because it\u2019s imagined that it is some kind of United States of Europe. The countries of Europe have got too much history to lose their identity in some kind of nebulous European ideal. So, I think Viktor Orb\u00e1n is very much on the right track in standing up to Brussels. And I think Brussels, frankly, has been quite oppressive and unfair in its treatment of Hungary.<\/p>\n
On the gender issue. Look, there are only two genders, male and female. You can\u2019t beat biology. And that\u2019s not to say that trans people have no rights. Of course, they have ordinary human rights, but this idea that even children should be accommodated in changing their gender, I just think it\u2019s crackers. Thank God, Viktor Orb\u00e1n is one of the few leaders who stood up for common sense on this.<\/p>\n
\u2018I think Brussels, frankly, has been quite oppressive and unfair in its treatment of Hungary\u2019<\/p>\n
And as for the Ukraine question, I just think that Ukraine has every right to look west rather than east. The idea that because Russia was the colonial overlord of Ukraine for several hundred years somehow gives it a right to come in to extinguish Ukraine\u2019s independence and sovereignty, it\u2019s dead wrong. So, I certainly want Ukraine to win. I don\u2019t want Ukraine annexing anyone else\u2019s territory, but I certainly want to see the Ukrainians expel every last Russian soldier from every last inch of Ukrainian territory.<\/p>\n
Tony Abbott PHOTO: Tam\u00e1s Gyurkovits\/Hungarian Conservative<\/p>\n
There is a fear that if Ukraine becomes an EU member state, it will have grave economic consequences for the poorer member states, like Hungary, Slovakia, and others.\u00a0<\/p>\n
I can understand that the accession of Ukraine would obviously involve financial support from the rest of Europe to Ukraine. Given the fact that Ukraine is probably the poorest country in Europe, and there\u2019s going to be a massive job of reconstruction. I\u2019d like to think that the money that oligarchs have looted from Russia, and which is currently in European financial institutions, the hundreds of billions of dollars could be deployed to the reconstruction of Ukraine. I don\u2019t think that helping a free and independent Ukraine would be too burdensome.<\/p>\n
There are many calculations that the agrarian sector of the poorer countries would get into trouble then.<\/p>\n
Economics is not a zero sum game. I mean, two countries can get rich together. Basically, since the 1950s all of the countries of Europe have got rich together. The problem with the EU is not that helping one country has impoverished another. The problem with the EU is that the institutions in Brussels have often stifled, if not crushed, the freedom of action, particularly domestic action of so many of the constituent countries.<\/p>\n
The other fear of the Hungarian conservatives is that the scenario that happened in Poland two and a half years ago could be repeated here: a total change in the direction of the policies, and political vengeance.<\/p>\n
I was disappointed to see the result in Poland, because the previous government presided over a real economic transformation, which I think has been undoubtedly good for everyone. As a Democrat, I certainly think that we should have peaceful transfers of power. The winning side should not exact vengeance against the losing side, because sooner or later, the boot will be on the other foot, and we need to accept that in any real democracy, from time to time, there will be changes of power.\u00a0<\/p>\n
\u2018The problem with the EU is that the institutions in Brussels have often stifled, if not crushed, the freedom of action\u2019<\/p>\n
Can you name some of the policies of the present Hungarian government, which are noteworthy, or worth implementing in your country?<\/p>\n
Well, one of the things that Viktor Orb\u00e1n has done is that he\u2019s trying to put in place tax policies which support the family, tax policies which promote and encourage families to have more children. I think so many Western countries have got an issue today. How do we give ourselves the people that we need to function, and if we don\u2019t have our own children, we tend to bring in migrants to do the jobs that are needed. Now, as a former Australian Prime Minister once said, our own children are the best migrants. So, what Viktor Orb\u00e1n has done here in Hungary, I think is well worth examination by conservatives in Australia, given that our birth rate is declining fast. We are, at the moment, bringing in record numbers of migrants. Not all of them are contributing economically and socially quite as well as we would like. And I would personally like to see much lower migration and far more Australian kids, who are the greatest vote of confidence in our future, in our family\u2019s future, in our country\u2019s future, and in our civilization\u2019s future.<\/p>\n
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Tony Abbott PHOTO: Tam\u00e1s Gyurkovits\/Hungarian Conservative<\/p>\n
There are three major crisis points in the global politics: Ukraine, the Iranian war, and the Pacific problem, namely the Taiwan issue. How do the Austrialian conservatives assess this fast and strange global order change?<\/p>\n
What we need to understand is that all these conflicts are linked. Because while militarist dictatorship in Moscow, the theocratic dictatorship in Tehran and the communist dictatorship in Beijing are quite different in their own way, they are united in their almost manic desire to overturn the post-war order to break the long Pax Americana, which has been so beneficial for the wider world. Now, I don\u2019t think that anyone should think for a second that Putin\u2019s objectives are confined to Ukraine. He\u2019s declared that the greatest geopolitical tragedy of the 20th century was the collapse of the Soviet Union. So, I think we can take it that Putin wants to recreate effectively the Russia of Peter the Great, so all of the countries of Eastern Europe will fall under the Russian shadow, should he succeed in Ukraine.<\/p>\n
\u2018What Viktor Orb\u00e1n has done here in Hungary\u2026is well worth examination by conservatives in Australia\u2019<\/p>\n
Then about Tehran: what America and Israel have done already has massively degraded, if not largely destroyed, the Iranian war machine. As long as the apocalyptic Islamist regime is in place, it will be wounded and perhaps therefore even more dangerous. And as far as the mullahs in Tehran are concerned, their objective is a global caliphate where non-Muslims will be very much second class citizens, and if they have to kill hundreds of millions of people to that goal, they will.<\/p>\n
How does Australia relate to this preventive war of the US and Israel against Iran? Do you support this war?<\/p>\n
The official Australian position is that we do support the attempts by Israel and the United States to deny Iran access to nuclear weapons, and we do regard the Iranian regime as a threat to world peace. But we haven\u2019t done what I think we should have. Had I been Prime Minister, once it was clear that the Americans were building up to an attack on Iran, I would have called President Trump and said: \u2018Look, what can Australia do to help?\u2019 The same way that I called President Obama back in 2014 and 2015, and offered Australian help in the fight against Islamic State.<\/p>\n
\u2018The official Australian position is that we do support the attempts by Israel and the United States to deny Iran access to nuclear weapons\u2019<\/p>\n
They are asking help now for the Strait of Hormuz to be secured.<\/p>\n
Well, we have subscribed to the British-led declaration of some 22 countries in support of efforts to reopen the Straits, but none of those countries as yet are offering their navies to actually make that happen. Now, the only way the Straits of Hormuz will be safe for civilian navigation anytime soon is if either the Iranian forces around the Straits are destroyed, or there\u2019s a regime change in Tehran. I personally think that Australia should be contributing to both of those objectives.<\/p>\n
Trump is running out of time, right? He needs to demonstrate trophies, victories, and his second presidential term is finishing soon. What can he still achieve\u2014and what can he not?<\/p>\n
If the Iranian war machine is degraded, then President Trump and Prime Minister Netanyahu have done the world a big favour. I don\u2019t think the job will be done until the regime changes. In order to maximize the conditions for regime change, it is necessary to apply further pressure, particularly to Kharg Island, which is obviously the main source of Iranian wealth. There is still a bit to be done before the President can credibly declare victory. And I hope once that\u2019s done, then the Iranian people will feel that they can more safely stand up against what is a truly vicious and evil regime.<\/p>\n
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Tony Abbott PHOTO: Tam\u00e1s Gyurkovits\/Hungarian Conservative<\/p>\n
What can Trump achieve in the field of competing with China?<\/p>\n
Don\u2019t forget that Russia and China are in this self-described \u2018no limits\u2019 partnership, and Russia and Tehran have been giving each other a lot of help both in the current Gulf crisis and also in the Ukraine war. I don\u2019t want to repeat the \u2018axis of evil\u2019 line from George Bush\u2019s time, but I think there certainly is an \u2018axis of autocracy\u2019, and they are working in concert. One of our mistakes in the democratic world is not to take dictators\u2019 word seriously.<\/p>\n
If dictators say they are dead serious on seizing land or conquering countries, they normally mean it. We\u2019ve been told by the commissars in Beijing a number of times that they are determined to overcome the century of humiliation, and in the short term, they are becoming the dominant power in East Asia\u2014and seizing Taiwan, they are becoming the global hegemon. Xi Jinping has said on numerous occasions that his objective is to ensure that China is the world\u2019s top power by 2049, the centenary of the Communist takeover. The disruption that we\u2019re currently seeing from the Ukraine war, from the Gulf War, is nothing compared to the disruption that we would see, should there be a serious Chinese assault on Taiwan.<\/p>\n
When do you predict this event happening?<\/p>\n
I hope it never happens. I hope that every morning when President Xi wakes up, he thinks \u2018not today\u2019, but he will only continue to think \u2018not today\u2019 if he is confident that there is a strong democratic alliance against him. If he ever thinks that Taiwan is alone and that it would just be 1.4 billion Chinese against 25 million Taiwanese, well, he will put the war machine in motion.<\/p>\n
\u2018One of our mistakes in the democratic world is not to take dictators\u2019 word seriously\u2019<\/p>\n
If he thinks, on the other hand, that Taiwan will have the active support of Japan or Australia or the United States, he would then think that this is costly. Rather than being the red emperor, this could actually threaten the foundations of communist rule, because dictators who lose wars don\u2019t normally last. So, I believe in deterrence through strength. I think that weakness is provocative, and therefore I think it\u2019s very important that the leading democracies of the world make it crystal clear to the commissars in Beijing that any attempt to change the status quo by force across the Taiwan Straits would have the gravest of consequences.<\/p>\n
Are the Pacific alliances strong enough to demonstrate deterrence?<\/p>\n
I think the Japanese are serious about defending themselves and protecting their vital national interests, of which Taiwan is obviously one. And whatever you think of President Trump, who plainly has been an uncomfortable ally in some senses, he\u2019s also been an extremely forthright and forward-leaning president, and I would be surprised if Xi Jinping would risk military adventurism across the Strait, at least while President Trump is in office.<\/p>\n
Lastly, in this turbulent time, what is the role and the political importance of conservatism and conservative policies?<\/p>\n
I guess, the fundamental characteristic of a conservative politician is a respect for everything that has made him, and a love of country, culture, institutions, peoples. I think that my party in Australia, which is our main conservative party, is a freedom party, it\u2019s a tradition party, but above all else, it\u2019s a patriot party. We believe that Australia is the best country on Earth, and we\u2019re determined to keep it that way. And I\u2019m sure Viktor Orb\u00e1n believes that Hungary is the best country on Earth, and it is, at least for Hungarians, and that\u2019s why the Hungarians have a right to keep it that way. So, I think that conservative politics is the natural pattern of government in successful and well-managed countries. And I certainly think that if you\u2019re looking for a friend and an ally, a partner that is full of self-respect is a much more reliable partner than one that is at war with itself.<\/p>\n