Belgian Defense Minister Theo Francken may oversee a small military, but it\u2019s one at the center of two of the world\u2019s most consequential multilateral institutions. Belgium hosts the headquarters of NATO and the European Union, both of which have been repeatedly targeted by U.S. President Donald Trump over their perceived lack of support for his war with Iran.\u00a0<\/p>\n
Trump has intensified<\/a> his talk about pulling the United States out of NATO, and his administration is reportedly weighing plans to suspend Spain<\/a> from the alliance (though there is no NATO mechanism to do so) as well as drawing up a so-called \u201cnaughty and nice<\/a>\u201d list of NATO members that would impose consequences on those that have not helped the United States in its war effort.\u00a0<\/p>\n Francken visited Washington this week, meeting with several U.S. defense officials, including Elbridge Colby\u2014the U.S. undersecretary of defense for policy and reported author<\/a> of the proposal to remove Spain from NATO\u2014and U.S. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, a day before Hegseth testified before House lawmakers who appear increasingly exasperated<\/a> with his performance.\u00a0<\/p>\n Over a breakfast of waffles, Francken chatted with Foreign Policy about his meeting with Hegseth, the strain Trump has imposed on NATO, and Belgium\u2019s potential role in helping to clear the Strait of Hormuz. The conversation below has been edited for length and clarity.\u00a0<\/p>\n Foreign Policy: You met with Hegseth yesterday [Tuesday]. How was that meeting, and what did you hear from him?<\/p>\n Theo Francken: All my meetings went really well. I think that there was always a warm welcome, also by Mr. Hegseth. It was really a very good meeting. What we were talking about, of course, always the same: on the budgets\u2014what is the investment of Belgium, what we are pledging, what is the future foresight on defense investments? Then on industrial cooperation\u2014what can we do together, how can we co-produce also in Europe? What are the plans? What is the possibility? [Undersecretary of Defense for Acquisition and Sustainment Michael Duffy] was there also. And then, of course, talking about the Strait of Hormuz, [the] Russian shadow fleet, Iran. I said we\u2019ve got a mine hunter prepositioned to be deployed with an international coalition when there\u2019s a stable cease-fire. We took out a vessel of the Russian shadow fleet, and we\u2019re ready to do more, so it was very to the point.\u00a0<\/p>\n FP: Hegseth is appearing in front of Congress today\u2014there has been a lot of tension there with even Republican lawmakers questioning him and his ability, plus the tensions around his sudden removal of Army Chief of Staff Gen. Randy George<\/a> and Navy Secretary John Phelan<\/a>.<\/p>\n TF: We didn\u2019t talk about that.<\/p>\n FP: That didn\u2019t come up? FP: Sure, fair enough. But did you get the sense from talking to him that he still has the trust of this administration and he\u2019s still in charge?<\/p>\n TF: Yes, he\u2019s absolutely in charge.\u00a0<\/p>\n FP: But does that\u2026 FP: But as an ally, as a NATO member, given the broader tensions in the trans-Atlantic relationship, does the sudden departure of all these senior leaders in the U.S. military worry you at all, given the prominent role it occupies? For me, the most important thing is that we keep on having this dialogue and keep on having this talk and be very friendly toward each other just by being open and clear. My name is Franck, I\u2019m always frank, so this is just to be open and say what\u2019s on your mind, what\u2019s laying on your liver\u2014I don\u2019t know if you say it in English, but it\u2019s an expression in Dutch\u2014what\u2019s in your hearts, and just speak loud, speak clear, speak frank, and then find the solution. But not always in the media, attacking each other like a really awful boxing match. Don\u2019t do that. That\u2019s awful.<\/p>\n FP: The source of a lot of the current tension with Trump is the Strait of Hormuz and the perceived lack of European involvement there. In the open, frank conversation you had with Hegseth, what were the demands or asks from the United States when it comes to European involvement?<\/p>\n TF: I cannot say everything that we discussed, but I can say that we are ready. We have really great demining capabilities because we have had a NATO Center of Excellence for demining in Belgium for years. That\u2019s a niche, but it\u2019s a niche where we\u2019re really strong, and that means that we have led NATO demining operations. We have good personnel. We have good equipment. A Belgian mine hunter was in a NATO operation in the Baltic Sea, we\u2019re going to be prepositioning this NATO mine hunter to go to the east Mediterranean Sea for another NATO operation, and when there\u2019s a green light, we will deploy it in the Strait of Hormuz for the demining.\u00a0<\/p>\n So, yeah, I explained [to Hegseth] our capabilities that we have, and he was very interested, of course, because they\u2019re very interested to have an open Strait of Hormuz after negotiations with the Iranians.\u00a0<\/p>\n The freedom of navigation is paramount. We have a lot of ports\u2014Belgium is a logistic hub. Our country is one big port, actually, so, yes, we need to have freedom of navigation. It is extremely important for our country and for all the world.\u00a0<\/p>\n FP: You said the mine hunter and the Belgian military are ready to go as soon as you get the green light. Green light from whom?<\/p>\n TF: So there\u2019s a British-French \u201ccoalition of the willing\u201d initiative, and they\u2019re tasking everything. It\u2019s a naval battle group that will go in when the conditions are met\u2014we\u2019re talking about an international mandate, but I think that we\u2019re pretty much there. We\u2019re talking about a stable cease-fire\u2014we\u2019re not going in when the ballistic missiles are going up and down. Now there is a cease-fire, we\u2019ll see if it\u2019s getting stable, what is the second phase of this negotiation scheme, so let\u2019s wait.\u00a0<\/p>\n FP: At what point would you consider the cease-fire stable enough to go in?\u00a0<\/p>\n TF: It\u2019s in the coalition, so we\u2019re not alone. We are a very small partner; it will be with the French, with the Germans, the British. We\u2019ll wait a bit. For the moment, no, but we\u2019re not there yet. We have to be deployed. It takes weeks to go there. It\u2019s a boat. It\u2019s not an airplane.<\/p>\n FP: Belgium, Europe, and NATO have not really been involved in this conflict, but do you have a sense of how much Iran\u2019s military capabilities have actually been degraded by this war?<\/p>\n TF: I think that the military operation against the positions of the IRGC [Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps] was very successful, but of course, they remain to have capabilities. It\u2019s a huge country, and they put all their money into arms, ammunition, and launchers and hiding them in caves, hiding them in bunkers, hiding them in mountains. So, yeah, it\u2019s not easy. They learn from Ukraine. They learn from what\u2019s happened in other countries of the world.\u00a0<\/p>\n They\u2019re a very old and civilized people, and they\u2019re very smart and highly educated.\u00a0<\/p>\n FP: So it\u2019s hard to say how much they still may or may not have?<\/p>\n TF: I know, but it\u2019s not my assessment. I know the numbers, but it\u2019s not for me to tell you that.\u00a0<\/p>\n FP: Moving on to the conflict that Europe is far more invested in\u2014how do you see the war in Iran impacting negotiations to end the war between Russia and Ukraine?\u00a0<\/p>\n TF: The Ukrainians are a very proud people, and they\u2019re doing a great job. They deserve not one statue; they deserve thousands of statues. And they don\u2019t care about what\u2019s happening in the Middle East. They\u2019re just doing their thing, and I think that they\u2019re really pushing Russia back. FP: Much of the burden for enabling Ukraine to sustain the fight has now fallen onto Europe from the United States, with things such as the PURL [Prioritised Ukraine Requirements List] mechanism, where Europe is paying for weapons. How well is that process working, and are there any challenges to getting Ukraine the weapons it needs?<\/p>\n TF: It\u2019s working quite well. I read a lot of articles about this, but when I check with my armed forces, they say that everything is working well, so I have no other information for the moment.\u00a0<\/p>\n
TF: No, no. I\u2019m a minister of Belgium. It\u2019s internal affairs.\u00a0<\/p>\n
TF: I don\u2019t know. I\u2019m sorry, I really don\u2019t know. It\u2019s his internal affairs. It\u2019s not my internal affairs in my administration and my general staff. I don\u2019t want him to mingle in mine, so I will not mingle in his. That\u2019s his own business.<\/p>\n
TF: I don\u2019t comment on that.
FP: Moving on to NATO, there has been a lot of tension in the alliance\u2014especially coming from Trump. He continues to talk offhand about pulling out of NATO. How did that conversation manifest itself with Hegseth and other U.S. military leaders?
TF: I think that there\u2019s not an issue when we\u2019re stepping up on defense. Everything depends on our attitudes. So, having the news<\/a> [this week] that European armed forces are stepping up\u2014Belgium has the biggest increase<\/a>, with 59 percent [more spent in 2025 than 2024]\u2014that\u2019s, of course, good news, and that\u2019s what they want. They always keep on repeating the same thing: Europe needs to take the security architecture of their own continent in their own hands, they need to step up on defense spending, and they need to do it fast. And because we have other business to take care of, internal questions, like the pivot toward the Pacific, they keep on repeating the same issues over and over and again. So, when we can show that we\u2019re really having concrete results, then it\u2019s very positive. It was a positive atmosphere. There was no hostility. It went really well.<\/p>\n
For the first time in the military parade in Moscow in two weeks, there won\u2019t be tanks. There won\u2019t be armored vehicles. The explanation of Moscow is that it\u2019s because they\u2019re all engaged in the war. The writing is on the wall. I think they are in a bad position.<\/p>\n