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It\u2019s been a messy few days at OpenAI<\/a>. On Friday, the company\u2019s board shocked the tech world by announcing it had fired CEO Sam Altman<\/a> \u2014 the face people think of when they think artificial intelligence<\/a>. Since then, the industry-leading AI firm has been in turmoil. Major figures at the company have resigned in protest of Altman\u2019s firing, and nearly 600<\/a> employees signed a letter threatening to quit if the board doesn\u2019t step down. The letter also threatened that displeased staffers would \u201cimminently\u201d follow Altman to his new position at Microsoft \u2014 the company that has helped bankroll OpenAI with billions of dollars and which almost immediately swooped in to hire Altman after he was let go. Altman is expected to be the chief executive of Microsoft\u2019s new research lab, though factions at OpenAI are still trying to get him back. If Microsoft does retain Altman, it will be a major coup for CEO Satya Nadella; news of Altman\u2019s hiring shot its stock value up by $56 billion<\/a>.<\/p>\n In the latest episode of\u00a0On With Kara Swisher<\/a>, Kara spoke with Nadella about the nuttiest business world shakeup since a different Sam<\/a> got fired last November. Nadella explains the reasoning behind his big move, why he thinks he should have been consulted about OpenAI\u2019s decision, and what has and hasn\u2019t changed at Microsoft with Altman\u2019s presumed arrival.<\/p>\n On With Kara Swisher <\/p>\n Subscribe on:<\/p>\n Kara Swisher: I want you to give me an overview of where you are right now and what\u2019s happening, because this has been quite a story for technology.<\/p>\n Satya Nadella: On Friday, I get a call saying that the OpenAI board was making a CEO transition. And we issued a statement right after that, which said they had appointed [chief technology officer] Mira Murati, whom I had known for a long time. Obviously she was very much part of the OpenAI team. And so we said, \u201cYeah, we will continue to work with OpenAI.\u201d And so that\u2019s kind of what all happened. There\u2019s no real change, at least as far as I\u2019m concerned.<\/p>\n Swisher: They didn\u2019t consult you, correct?<\/p>\n Nadella: We were mostly working with Sam and the management team and the for-profit entity, and we didn\u2019t have any relationship with the nonprofit board, which has the governance of this entity. That\u2019s correct.<\/p>\n Swisher: Did you feel like you should have been consulted?<\/p>\n Nadella: At the very least, right? Of course, the nonprofit boards have their own commitment to their mission. But given all of our investment in OpenAI \u2014 and it\u2019s not even the money and the capital. I mean, here\u2019s a simple way to think about this. Sam chose Microsoft once. Sam chose Microsoft twice. And someone\u2019s got to think about why. There is no OpenAI without Microsoft leaning in in a deep way to partner with this company on their mission. We love their mission. We even love their independence. We have no issues with any of it.<\/p>\n And look, I know in Silicon Valley people talk about who is getting ahead of the other. I believe in partnerships. In fact, one of the most understated things is great partnerships can create lots of enterprise value. So I deeply, always, have remained committed. And yes, they should have. As a partner, I think it does mean that you deserve to be consulted on big decisions.<\/p>\n Swisher: So your first statement<\/a> on Friday was pretty diplomatic. You said, \u201cWe have a long-term agreement with OpenAI, with full access to everything we need to deliver our innovation agenda and exciting product roadmap and remain committed to our partnership and to Mira and the team.\u201d So Mira then started negotiations. You were part of that, from what I understand \u2014of getting Sam back, because Mira had expressed interest in bringing him back. I think she moved up to that CEO position, but was already working to bring [co-founder] Greg Brockman and Sam back to the job.<\/p>\n Nadella: All through the weekend, I quite frankly didn\u2019t engage with the OpenAI board. The only person I know there is [board member] Adam DiAngelo. I was consistent. Same thing \u2014 I said, \u201cLook, we really are very committed to OpenAI. We are very committed to Mira as the interim CEO. We want to make sure that whatever Sam does, you\u2019ll definitely do with us and you should know that and we would be happy for Sam to come back if that\u2019s what you choose to.\u201d I was very clear that we would be supportive of Sam and Greg and the team, because the thing that we didn\u2019t want is the team to get splintered and the mission to get jeopardized. But the point is, we were very confident in our own ability. We have all the IP rights and all the capability.<\/p>\n If OpenAI disappeared tomorrow, I don\u2019t want any customer of ours to be worried about it quite honestly, because we have all of the rights to continue the innovation. Not just to serve the product, but we can go and just do what we were doing in partnership ourselves. We have the people, we have the compute, we have the data, we have everything. But at the same time, I\u2019m committed to the OpenAI partnership and that\u2019s what I expressed to them.<\/p>\n Swisher: And where does that stand? Because you have invested, is it $13 billion?<\/p>\n Nadella: And that gives us significant rights as I said. And also this thing, it\u2019s not hands off, right? We are in there. We are below them, above them, around them. We do the kernel optimizations, we build tools, we build the infrastructure. So that\u2019s why I think a lot of the industrial analysts are saying, \u201cOh wow, it\u2019s really a joint project between Microsoft and OpenAI.\u201d The reality is we are, as I said, very self-sufficient in all of this.<\/p>\n Swisher: I get that, but still, you want to know when something like this is happening because they need to deliver the partnership, correct?<\/p>\n Nadella: Correct.<\/p>\n Swisher: I mean, you invest thinking that they can deliver what they promised on their side.<\/p>\n Nadella: Absolutely.<\/p>\n Swisher: Was that a worry for you? It was clearly a crisis. I mean, let\u2019s be honest. I mean, this was unprecedented. I\u2019ve covered Silicon Valley, I\u2019ve known you for decades. I\u2019ve never seen anything like this.<\/p>\n Nadella: Of course. Anytime you have significant turnover, there\u2019s always risk. There\u2019s a key person risk and then the team risk. And at the end of the day, we can talk a lot about technology and other things, but it\u2019s about the human capital of any organization.<\/p>\n That\u2019s where I go back to what my message over the weekend. I like to keep things simple. I start with \u201cHey, what is the thing that we were doing on Friday morning?\u201d We were trying to build great products and great technology and do real research around everything from AI safety and alignment to the next generation models. I want to continue to do that on behalf of our customers and partners. And what\u2019s the best way to do that? Have the people. And optimize for the people. And then obviously the boards have to do what they have to do around their governance, but I don\u2019t know. I\u2019m not a part of their board. So all I said is \u201cHey, whatever it is that you\u2019re doing, just make sure that you don\u2019t compromise the mission of the organization in which we have invested and the people who are behind that that we bet on.\u201d And so that\u2019s it.<\/p>\n Swisher: I\u2019m sure that was disturbing coming from you. But talk about Sam Altman. He\u2019s the one that got the investment, who has the relationship with you. As you said, you don\u2019t know this board. You\u2019ve hired him now to create this new advanced research division. Can you talk a little more in detail about what that means?<\/p>\n Nadella: Sam is someone I\u2019ve known for a very long time. And in the last, I would say, four and a half, five years that we\u2019ve worked together closely now in this context, we\u2019ve obviously gotten to know each other very deeply, not just as acquaintances, but as deep professional partners. And so I have great admiration for his vision, his ability to bring teams together and push. That\u2019s what I want him to do irrespective of what happens right now. I just wanted him to make sure that he\u2019s able to continue. And he\u2019s a very mission-driven guy. He wants to continue to push this advanced AI work that he and Greg and the team were doing. That team will come and they\u2019ll join Microsoft and we\u2019ll continue to work with OpenAI. So nothing changes. After all, we had many engineers from Microsoft who are also working with OpenAI on Friday, and so we\u2019ll continue to do the same.<\/p>\n Swisher: Nearly 600 of the employees want to leave at the company. So there\u2019s not much OpenAI to work for if that happens.<\/p>\n Nadella: This is where I leave it to individual employees to decide. But as I said, we will definitely have a place for all AI talent to come here and move forward on the mission. And we will be supportive of whoever remains even at OpenAI or whatever. At the end of the day, I\u2019m doing things that are meaningful for my customers and I\u2019m going to continue to partner with OpenAI, and I\u2019ll continue to make sure that Sam and his team are supported.<\/p>\n Swisher: So what is his advanced AI team? What does that mean and how are you going to fund it? Where\u2019s it going to be?<\/p>\n Nadella: Think of it like how we organize GitHub or what have you. It\u2019ll be a real team inside of Microsoft, where one of the things we have learned, Kara, the idea that we learned from having created GitHub, LinkedIn, Mojang Studios, is how to have innovators and builders who come to Microsoft and then continue to have an identity, a culture, a spirit to do things.<\/p>\n Swisher: What kind of funding does this get from Microsoft?<\/p>\n Nadella: I mean, the beauty of anything inside Microsoft is I don\u2019t have to talk to you about it.<\/p>\n Swisher: Well, you might have some billions lying around if everybody leaves OpenAI. That\u2019s just my question.<\/p>\n Nadella: Yes. The silliness of it all is the little acquisitions we make and the little investments we make get more press than all of the money, which is the organic investment we make. But that\u2019s the world, and that\u2019s okay.<\/p>\n Swisher: I get that. I know you\u2019re doing a lot of research, but I think a lot of people, and I am among them, think you just possibly got this company for free if all these employees go over. Were you surprised by how many employees were backing Sam?<\/p>\n Nadella: I think it speaks to Sam and his mission-driven approach to building teams, which obviously I admire a lot. If that is the eventuality, then great. But I don\u2019t think of this as, \u201cHey, somehow we are trying to use this to get something for free,\u201d as you described. I mean, we were happy on Friday morning.<\/p>\n Swisher: Let me say you\u2019re in a better position. You\u2019re in a better position. You are.<\/p>\n Nadella: I was in a good position, Kara.<\/p>\n Swisher: Okay.<\/p>\n Nadella: There is nothing that\u2019s really changed. On Friday I could have done exactly what I\u2019m going to do today. I think that yes, it\u2019s sort of better copy, but there\u2019s no real change. In fact, Friday I was more productive than the weekend, let me put it that way.<\/p>\n Swisher: So this new unit, it\u2019ll sit within Microsoft. It could have quite a lot of the OpenAI employees who have been promised jobs. Is that correct?<\/p>\n Nadella: That\u2019s correct. We said, \u201cYeah, anyone who wants to join us \u2026\u201d\u00a0Let\u2019s face it, right? There\u2019s a lot of competition for AI talent. I just wanted to make sure that in a world where people have choices, if they\u2019re going to leave OpenAI, that Microsoft was a choice for them.<\/p>\n Swisher: Right. Marc Benioff\u2019s trying to hire. He\u2019s trying to grab some of those people. I\u2019m sure everybody is. But you will continue to work with OpenAI no matter what happens. Do you know the newest interim CEO, Emmett Shear?<\/p>\n Nadella: I\u2019ve not known him before, but I met him for the first time last night. I\u2019ve had a couple of subsequent conversations and I relayed essentially the same message that I just told you, Kara, which is we are committed to our customers and the innovation and them and Sam. He knows that and he\u2019s good with all of that. And that\u2019s why I even put out the statement yesterday last night when I first came to know that he was going to be the new interim CEO.<\/p>\n Swisher: But you were more excited for the Sam acquisition \u2014 I\u2019m going to call it the Sam acquisition just to annoy you. Could this change if the board leaves and he goes back? Are you open to that possibility with more Microsoft board presence?<\/p>\n Nadella: Oh, yeah. One thing I\u2019ll be very, very clear on is we are never going to get back into a situation where we get surprised like this ever again. If anything, we are much more resolute that we cannot have our customers and so on feel like there are going to be surprises. We\u2019ll definitely take care of all of the governance issues and anything else. And as I said, we have all the rights, so therefore we will make sure that we are very, very clear that the governance gets fixed in a way that we really have maturity and guarantee that we don\u2019t have surprises. That\u2019s all.<\/p>\n Swisher: Does that mean a board observer or board seat?<\/p>\n Nadella: We\u2019ll sort of cross that if it happens. But I think that we will need to make sure that our interests are solid. It\u2019s not like I felt that on Friday morning, somehow our interests were not solid. But we\u2019ve learned a lesson or two and we\u2019ll make sure that we will double down on it.<\/p>\n I think the key thing for our customers is to know that even if everything disappeared, we have everything we need in order to just continue to keep innovating without a blip. And that I think is the one thing that is not understood by the world. We wouldn\u2019t be Microsoft in 2023 with the capability up and down the stack if we didn\u2019t have that. And it\u2019s silly for people to keep thinking about like, \u201cHey, one company with little technology is going to make all the difference.\u201d We are a lot bigger. We love the partnership, but we are not single-threaded.<\/p>\n Swisher: Were you worried about any of the allegations the board made, including [co-founder] Ilya Sutskever, who has now signed the letter also noted deeply regrets his participation in the board\u2019s action?<\/p>\n Nadella: I did not hear anything. For me, first of all, Ilya is an amazing scientist. He was another core person at OpenAI that I admired a lot and I still admire for all the unbelievable core work he has done. I was surprised. I mean, I\u2019m also just reading. I don\u2019t know anything about his opinions about what happened or not and so on, but nevertheless, I\u2019ve not heard anything. And if the question is about safety, oh my God \u2014 that matters, I know, to Sam; it matters to OpenAI. In fact, one of the things that I think brought Microsoft and OpenAI together was, \u201cHey, look, we are going to build AI that can broadly be distributed so that people can take advantage of it with products like GitHub, Copilot, or ChatGPT, or Copilot in M365 or what have you.\u201d And at the same time we think about alignment.<\/p>\n Swisher: So you had no worries about Sam Altman that the board had raised?<\/p>\n Nadella: I am not aware of any of those things. And even in my conversations with them, none of them were raised to me.<\/p>\n Swisher: It was so nontransparent and unclear if you\u2019re making those kinds of allegations, calling someone a liar essentially. And your hope is that you do this thing with Sam and also OpenAI stays a company? Or he moves back to OpenAI and then you have least observation of the board, et cetera?<\/p>\n Nadella: I want us to continue to serve our customers with the road map that I\u2019m very confident about and committed to. On Friday morning, we were partnering with OpenAI and Sam, and today we are going to be working with Sam and OpenAI.<\/p>\n Swisher: Will that be the case if this board stays? I don\u2019t think they will. That\u2019s my opinion.<\/p>\n Nadella: It\u2019s not my decision so I really don\u2019t really have an opinion to express on that. It\u2019s for them and other constituents who have a say. But to me, I was comfortable partnering with OpenAI with their board and I\u2019m happy to keep working with OpenAI, and they\u2019ll have to sort out their board and what have you.<\/p>\n Swisher: I have one more specific question. Would Sam become a potential, I\u2019m not trying to replace you, Satya, but a potential CEO of Microsoft in this case?<\/p>\n Nadella: Let\u2019s just say that it\u2019s fantastic to have lots of capable people who can become CEOs of Microsoft.<\/p>\n Swisher: I reported early on about a misalignment between the nonprofit board and Sam\u2019s efforts, and this split between those who see a world who see the business opportunity and a little bit of hype and others worried about the dangers of moving too fast. What do you think about this? Where do you stand?<\/p>\n Nadella: The optimism I have for this generation of technology is the fact that this debate exists. The question is, How can you really make sure that the use of the tools gets propagated and the weapons not so much? I mean, I think about also this \u2014 there\u2019s a timeline, right? There are existential issues in the long run if you lose control of AI, and that requires real thought and real safety research, real alignment research that you have to commit to. Then there are the real-world harms today, right? Whether it\u2019s election interference, deepfakes, bias, bioterrorism. So I feel that we have sort of got to work all ends of it on a daily basis. It\u2019s not just not talking about it, it\u2019s learning the engineering process, having these principles guide the engineering process, and then having oversight and safety boards and with real teeth.<\/p>\n So I am very committed to responsible, safe AI development, and at the same time driving the benefits of it. When I see that rural farmer in India who\u2019s able to use something that was produced in the West Coast of the United States to have more agency in their life, that\u2019s magic. When I see that somewhere in the Middle East, a kid can have a personalized tutor because of what we built, that\u2019s magic. And I want that benefit. And at the same time, let\u2019s make sure that all the harms that people talk about, we take them seriously.<\/p>\n This interview has been edited for length and clarity.<\/p>\n On With Kara Swisher<\/a> is produced by Nayeema Raza, Blakeney Schick, Cristian Castro Rossel, and Megan Burney, with mixing by Fernando Arruda, engineering by Christopher Shurtleff, and theme music by Trackademics. New episodes will drop every Monday and Thursday. Follow the show on\u00a0Apple Podcasts<\/a>,\u00a0Spotify<\/a>, or\u00a0wherever you get your podcasts<\/a>.<\/p>\n![\"\"\/](\"https:\/\/www.europesays.com\/people\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/05\/eeb3b1c8f19f39c51cc542346d47001171-On-with-Kara-Swisher.rsquare.w180.jpg\")
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