Dac\u0103 Rom\u00e2nia decide s\u0103 ajute SUA \u00een opera\u021biunea sa din Orientul Mijlociu, ar trebui s\u0103 se asigure c\u0103 prime\u0219te ceva \u00een schimb, cum ar fi reintroducerea programului de scutire de vize sau ajutor pentru conflictul din Ucraina, a declarat \u00eentr-un interviu acordat G4Media.ro Anne Applebaum, reputat istoric \u0219i juralist american, laureat\u0103 a premiului Pulitzer (2004).<\/p>\n
– articolul continu\u0103 mai jos –<\/p>\n
\u201dCea mai mare provocare strategic\u0103 pentru Rom\u00e2nia \u00een acest moment vine din partea Rusiei. Nu vine din partea Iranului. Iar rom\u00e2nii ar trebui s\u0103 se asigure c\u0103, \u00een schimbul ajutorului acordat SUA \u00een r\u0103zboiul pe care Donald Trump a decis s\u0103-l \u00eenceap\u0103, vor primi ajutor \u00een r\u0103zboiul care \u00eei prive\u0219te, r\u0103zboiul care dureaz\u0103 de patru ani, care afecteaz\u0103 economia Rom\u00e2niei, care afecteaz\u0103 securitatea Rom\u00e2niei \u0219i a\u0219a mai departe. Dac\u0103 vor ajuta SUA, trebuie s\u0103 ob\u021bin\u0103 ceva \u00een schimb\u201d, a declarat Applebaum pentru G4Media.ro.<\/p>\n
Biblioteca Central\u0103 Universitar\u0103 \u201eCarol I\u201d, \u00een parteneriat cu Expert Forum (EFOR Rom\u00e2nia) \u0219i Editura Litera, au organizat miercuri prezentarea raportului anual \u201eDemocra\u021bia \u0219i societatea civil\u0103 \u00een Europa de Est\u201d, urmat\u0103 de un dialog public cu istoricul \u0219i jurnalistul american Anne Applebaum, una dintre cele mai influente voci contemporane \u00een analiza autoritarismului \u0219i a transform\u0103rilor politice din Europa Central\u0103 \u0219i de Est.<\/p>\n
Evenimentul moderat de analistul politic Sorin Ioni\u021b\u0103, pre\u0219edintele Expert Forum, a reunit \u00een Aula Bibliotecii Centrale Universitare \u201eCarol I\u201d speciali\u0219ti, jurnali\u0219ti, cercet\u0103tori \u0219i reprezentan\u021bi ai societ\u0103\u021bii civile interesa\u021bi de evolu\u021biile politice \u0219i democratice din regiune<\/p>\n
Cele mai relevante declara\u021bii f\u0103cute de Anne Applebaum pentru G4Media.ro:<\/p>\n
Dan T\u0103p\u0103lag\u0103: Vorbim cu Anne Applebaum, jurnalist\u0103 \u0219i istoric\u0103 renumit\u0103. Anne se afl\u0103 aici pentru o dezbatere \u00een cadrul evenimentului Expert Forum, unde \u00ee\u0219i lanseaz\u0103 \u0219i c\u0103r\u021bile. S\u0103 \u00eencepem discu\u021bia, Anne, cu tema principal\u0103: conflictul dintre SUA \u0219i Europa. Pre\u0219edintele Nicu\u0219or Dan a participat recent la Consiliul de Pace al lui Donald Trump la Washington, al\u0103turi de Viktor Orban, fiind singurii lideri ai UE prezen\u021bi la acel eveniment. \u0218i acest lucru pare a fi o \u00eendep\u0103rtare de Bruxelles. \u00centrebarea este: Rom\u00e2nia este for\u021bat\u0103 s\u0103 aleag\u0103 \u00eentre Washington \u0219i UE? Sau acest joc dublu, \u00een care se joac\u0103 pe ambele fronturi, este o strategie durabil\u0103Is<\/p>\n
Anne Applebaum: \u00cen primul r\u00e2nd, permite\u021bi-mi s\u0103 spun c\u0103 \u00een\u021beleg de ce pre\u0219edintele Rom\u00e2niei dore\u0219te o rela\u021bie bun\u0103 cu Donald Trump. Este logic. El este liderul celui mai mare aliat al Rom\u00e2niei. \u0218i dac\u0103 el consider\u0103 c\u0103 este important pentru el s\u0103 participe la un eveniment, atunci nu am nimic \u00eempotriv\u0103. Cu toate acestea, permite\u021bi-mi s\u0103 fac un pas \u00eenapoi \u0219i s\u0103 g\u00e2ndesc pu\u021bin mai amplu despre SUA \u0219i Europa, pentru c\u0103 este adev\u0103rat c\u0103, pentru prima dat\u0103 cu adev\u0103rat din 1945, SUA \u0219i Europa se \u00eendreapt\u0103 \u00een direc\u021bii diferite. Statele Unite nu se mai consider\u0103 oficial liderul taberei democratice. Administra\u021bia nu vorbe\u0219te \u00een acest sens. Strategia sa de securitate na\u021bional\u0103 nu vede lumea \u00een acest fel. Nu are un interes special \u00een ap\u0103rarea Europei sau \u00een colaborarea cu Europa. \u0218i-a descris politica extern\u0103 ca fiind tranzac\u021bional\u0103. Va colabora cu oricine \u00eei convine la un moment dat.<\/p>\n
Av\u00e2nd \u00een vedere acest lucru, este foarte important ca rom\u00e2nii s\u0103-\u0219i aminteasc\u0103 c\u00e2t de important\u0103 este stabilitatea lor economic\u0103 pentru integrarea european\u0103, c\u0103 banii pe care Bruxelles \u00eei furnizeaz\u0103 sub diferite forme \u0219i fonduri structurale \u0219i a\u0219a mai departe sunt mult mai mari dec\u00e2t orice furnizeaz\u0103 Statele Unite \u0219i c\u0103, \u00een cele din urm\u0103, chiar \u0219i \u00een domeniul securit\u0103\u021bii, alte \u021b\u0103ri europene care se confrunt\u0103 cu acelea\u0219i amenin\u021b\u0103ri ca Rom\u00e2nia vor fi cei mai importan\u021bi prieteni pe termen lung ai Rom\u00e2niei. \u0218i aici m\u0103 g\u00e2ndesc la Polonia. M\u0103 g\u00e2ndesc la statele baltice. M\u0103 g\u00e2ndesc, de asemenea, la Scandinavia, Norvegia, Finlanda, Suedia, Danemarca, Germania \u0219i Marea Britanie. Acestea sunt \u021b\u0103rile care sunt cele mai concentrate pe amenin\u021barea din partea Rusiei, care o simt personal, care o \u00een\u021beleg \u0219i care vor fi\u2026 Este foarte important ca Rom\u00e2nia s\u0103 colaboreze str\u00e2ns cu ele \u00een domeniul securit\u0103\u021bii \u00een viitor.<\/p>\n
Dan T\u0103p\u0103lag\u0103: Pe de alt\u0103 parte, Anne Applebaum, exist\u0103 o realitate, geografia arat\u0103 aceast\u0103 realitate. Rom\u00e2nia nu se afl\u0103 \u00eentr-o pozi\u021bie similar\u0103 cu Fran\u021ba, Germania sau Marea Britanie, departe de Rusia. Adev\u0103rul este c\u0103 Rom\u00e2nia este\u2026<\/p>\n
Anne Applebaum: Germania nu este at\u00e2t de departe, dar da.<\/p>\n
Dan T\u0103p\u0103lag\u0103: Bine, dar Rom\u00e2nia este foarte aproape de Rusia \u0219i avem nevoie de sprijinul militar al SUA \u0219i, \u00een acela\u0219i timp, trebuie s\u0103 fim aproape de Bruxelles, deoarece banii vin de la Bruxelles. Ce ar trebui s\u0103 fac\u0103 Rom\u00e2nia \u00een aceast\u0103 pozi\u021bie foarte delicat\u0103?<\/p>\n
Anne Applebaum: P\u0103i, bine\u00een\u021beles c\u0103 Rom\u00e2nia ar trebui s\u0103 caute rela\u021bii bune cu SUA \u0219i, \u00een acela\u0219i timp, rela\u021bii bune cu Europa \u0219i, \u00een acest moment, nu e\u0219ti obligat s\u0103 alegi. A\u0219adar, nu cred c\u0103 trebuie s\u0103 face\u021bi asta \u00eenc\u0103. Dar, din nou, a\u0219 dori s\u0103 v\u0103 atrag aten\u021bia asupra faptului c\u0103, pentru administra\u021bia SUA, un r\u0103zboi cu Iranul, care este un r\u0103zboi pe care SUA a decis s\u0103-l lanseze, pare s\u0103 fie mai important pentru Washington dec\u00e2t r\u0103zboiul Ucrainei cu Rusia.<\/p>\n
\u0218i trebuie s\u0103 trage\u021bi ni\u0219te concluzii din asta. \u0218ti\u021bi, a\u0219a cum a spus pre\u0219edintele Zelensky, ceva de genul a 800 de rachete de ap\u0103rare aerian\u0103 Patriot. Acestea sunt rachetele de care Ucraina are nevoie pentru a-\u0219i ap\u0103ra ora\u0219ele de atacul rus. Au fost folosite \u00een Orientul Mijlociu \u00een trei zile la \u00eenceputul acestui r\u0103zboi. \u0218i asta este mai mult dec\u00e2t a avut Ucraina din 2022.<\/p>\n
Deci, SUA demonstreaz\u0103 c\u0103 face o alegere. Alege s\u0103 lupte \u00eentr-un r\u0103zboi \u00een Orientul Mijlociu \u0219i nu alege s\u0103 apere Ucraina. \u0218i asta ar trebui s\u0103 \u00eengrijoreze rom\u00e2nii, pentru c\u0103 este \u00een interesul vostru ca Ucraina s\u0103 c\u00e2\u0219tige acest r\u0103zboi, iar acesta este, de fapt, interesul vostru geopolitic principal \u00een acest moment.<\/p>\n
Dan T\u0103p\u0103lag\u0103: Apropo, pre\u0219edintele Zelensky sose\u0219te m\u00e2ine la Bucure\u0219ti pentru a se \u00eent\u00e2lni cu pre\u0219edintele Nicu\u0219or Dan. Crede\u021bi c\u0103 Zelensky este \u00eengrijorat c\u0103 sprijinul rom\u00e2nesc \u0219i american se estompeaz\u0103? A venit aici pentru a preveni un scenariu \u00een care Putin s\u0103 c\u00e2\u0219tige avantajul deoarece Occidentul \u00ee\u0219i \u00eendreapt\u0103 aten\u021bia c\u0103tre Iran?<\/p>\n
Anne Applebaum: Desigur, nu \u0219tiu de ce vine pre\u0219edintele Zelensky. Nu am calendarul lui \u00een fa\u021ba mea. Dar da, sunt sigur\u0103 c\u0103 pentru pre\u0219edintele Zelensky este foarte important ca principalii lui alia\u021bi, \u021b\u0103rile de care depinde pentru a continua efortul de r\u0103zboi, s\u0103 r\u0103m\u00e2n\u0103 al\u0103turi de el. Nu doar s\u0103 r\u0103m\u00e2n\u0103 \u00een tab\u0103ra lui, ci s\u0103-\u0219i aminteasc\u0103 ce este \u00een interesul lor. Este \u00een interesul Rom\u00e2niei ca Ucraina s\u0103 c\u00e2\u0219tige r\u0103zboiul. Nu este \u00een interesul Rom\u00e2niei ca Rusia s\u0103 \u00eenving\u0103 Ucraina \u0219i s\u0103 devin\u0103 mai dominant\u0103 \u00een regiune. A\u0219adar, dac\u0103 vine s\u0103 reaminteasc\u0103 Rom\u00e2niei care este cel mai important r\u0103zboi din lume pentru Rom\u00e2nia, atunci cred c\u0103 face ceea ce trebuie.<\/p>\n
Dan T\u0103p\u0103lag\u0103: Crezi c\u0103 Donald Trump ar fi tentat s\u0103 \u00eencheie un acord cu Vladimir Putin, pun\u00e2nd cap\u0103t r\u0103zboiului \u00een condi\u021biile impuse de Rusia, \u00een schimbul distan\u021b\u0103rii Moscovei de Iran \u0219i China?<\/p>\n
Anne Applebaum: Cred c\u0103 pre\u0219edintele Trump \u00eencearc\u0103 s\u0103 fac\u0103 asta de un an. De fapt, asta este ceea ce vrea s\u0103 fac\u0103. Problema este, \u00een primul r\u00e2nd, c\u0103 ru\u0219ii nu vor s\u0103 pun\u0103 cap\u0103t r\u0103zboiului \u00een niciun fel, cu excep\u021bia cuceririi Ucrainei. Ru\u0219ii nu au renun\u021bat la obiectivul lor ini\u021bial, iar obiectivul lor ini\u021bial este distrugerea Ucrainei ca na\u021biune. \u0218i nu au renun\u021bat niciodat\u0103 \u00een mod oficial la acest obiectiv. Pre\u0219edintele Putin nu a spus niciodat\u0103 c\u0103 dore\u0219te un armisti\u021biu. Nu au acceptat niciodat\u0103 niciun fel de m\u0103sur\u0103 de compromis care s\u0103 permit\u0103 Ucrainei s\u0103 existe ca stat \u0219i s\u0103 aib\u0103 garan\u021bia c\u0103 r\u0103zboiul nu va re\u00eencepe dou\u0103 luni mai t\u00e2rziu dup\u0103 armisti\u021biu sau trei luni mai t\u00e2rziu. \u00cen al doilea r\u00e2nd, pre\u0219edintele Trump nu are puterea de a pune cap\u0103t r\u0103zboiului \u00een condi\u021biile impuse de cineva, deoarece Ucraina are putere de decizie \u0219i poate decide ce s\u0103 fac\u0103, iar Europa are putere de decizie.<\/p>\n
Europenii pot decide, de asemenea, ce s\u0103 fac\u0103. \u0218i \u00een acest moment, r\u0103zboiul este finan\u021bat de Europa, nu de America. America joac\u0103 un rol foarte, foarte limitat \u00een conflict. \u0218i cele mai importante arme din r\u0103zboi nu provin din Statele Unite. Sunt fabricate de ucraineni. Cred c\u0103 mul\u021bi oameni nu \u00een\u021beleg c\u0103 Ucraina a trecut \u00een ultimii patru ani printr-un fel de revolu\u021bie \u00een tehnologia militar\u0103. Ucrainenii sunt acum lideri mondiali \u00een tehnologia dronelor. De fapt, \u00een acest moment, furnizeaz\u0103 aceste drone unor state din Golf pentru a le ajuta s\u0103 se apere \u00eempotriva Iranului. \u0218i cea mai mare parte a banilor pentru aceast\u0103 produc\u021bie provine, din nou, din Europa, nu din Statele Unite. Deci, \u0219ti\u021bi, pre\u0219edintele Trump nu are capacitatea de a pune cap\u0103t r\u0103zboiului \u00een condi\u021biile impuse de Rusia. Nu este \u00een puterea lui.<\/p>\n
Dan T\u0103p\u0103lag\u0103: Chiar dac\u0103 ar \u00eencerca.<\/p>\n
Anne Applebaum: De fapt, \u00eencearc\u0103 de luni de zile. Nu, nu poate s\u0103-l \u00eencheie \u00een condi\u021biile impuse de Rusia, pentru c\u0103 sunt \u0219i alte p\u0103r\u021bi interesate. Europa are un rol, iar Ucraina, desigur, are rolul principal.<\/p>\n
Dan T\u0103p\u0103lag\u0103: Bine, vorbind despre r\u0103zboiul din Iran de data aceasta, \u0219tirea de ultim\u0103 or\u0103 din Rom\u00e2nia de ast\u0103zi este cererea SUA de a desf\u0103\u0219ura noi capacit\u0103\u021bi militare la baza Mihail Kogalinshanov din sudul \u021b\u0103rii, probabil avioane \u0219i sisteme radar. \u00cen acest moment, Consiliul Suprem de Ap\u0103rare dezbate aceast\u0103 cerere. \u0218i av\u00e2nd \u00een vedere tensiunile regionale, care este p\u0103rerea dumneavoastr\u0103? Ar trebui Rom\u00e2nia s\u0103 aprobe aceast\u0103 cerere? \u0218i care sunt riscurile de a ajuta opera\u021biunile SUA \u00een Orientul Mijlociu?<\/p>\n
Anne Applebaum: Cred c\u0103, dac\u0103 Rom\u00e2nia decide s\u0103 ajute SUA \u00een opera\u021biunea sa din Orientul Mijlociu, ar trebui s\u0103 se asigure c\u0103 prime\u0219te ceva \u00een schimb. Pentru c\u0103, din nou, cea mai mare provocare strategic\u0103 pentru Rom\u00e2nia \u00een acest moment vine din partea Rusiei. Nu vine din partea Iranului. Iar rom\u00e2nii ar trebui s\u0103 se asigure c\u0103, \u00een schimbul ajutorului acordat SUA \u00een r\u0103zboiul pe care Donald Trump a decis s\u0103-l \u00eenceap\u0103, vor primi ajutor \u00een r\u0103zboiul care \u00eei prive\u0219te, r\u0103zboiul care dureaz\u0103 de patru ani, care afecteaz\u0103 economia Rom\u00e2niei, care afecteaz\u0103 securitatea Rom\u00e2niei \u0219i a\u0219a mai departe. Dac\u0103 vor ajuta SUA, trebuie s\u0103 ob\u021bin\u0103 ceva \u00een schimb.<\/p>\n
Dan T\u0103p\u0103lag\u0103: Fostul pre\u0219edinte al Rom\u00e2niei, Traian B\u0103sescu, tocmai a postat pe Facebook ceva foarte similar, spun\u00e2nd c\u0103 SUA ar trebui s\u0103 \u0219tie c\u0103 accesul la baza Kog\u0103lniceanu are un cost.<\/p>\n
Anne Applebaum: Cred c\u0103 are dreptate. Rom\u00e2nia este, \u0219ti\u021bi, dac\u0103 SUA are acum o politic\u0103 extern\u0103 tranzac\u021bional\u0103, \u00een care se simte distan\u021bat\u0103 de fo\u0219tii alia\u021bi \u0219i nu se mai simte deosebit de apropiat\u0103 de Europa, atunci \u0219i Europa are dreptul s\u0103 r\u0103spund\u0103 \u00eentr-un mod mai tranzac\u021bional dec\u00e2t \u00een trecut.<\/p>\n
Dan T\u0103p\u0103lag\u0103: Deci s\u0103 fim tranzac\u021bionali cu administra\u021bia Trump.<\/p>\n
Anne Applebaum: Adic\u0103, nu-mi place cuv\u00e2ntul \u201etranzac\u021bional\u201d \u0219i nu-mi place atitudinea, pentru c\u0103 cred c\u0103 ceea ce serve\u0219te mai bine Rom\u00e2niei este s\u0103 fac\u0103 parte dintr-o alian\u021b\u0103 bazat\u0103 pe valori. \u0218i \u00een acest moment, principala alian\u021b\u0103 bazat\u0103 pe valori se afl\u0103 \u00een Europa. \u0218i sper c\u0103, \u00een cele din urm\u0103, SUA se vor \u00eentoarce la aceast\u0103 alian\u021b\u0103.<\/p>\n
Dan T\u0103p\u0103lag\u0103: S\u0103 punem aceast\u0103 cerere a administra\u021biei americane \u00eentr-un context mai larg, \u00eentr-un context european. Puteri europene importante, precum Fran\u021ba \u0219i Germania, au ezitat foarte mult s\u0103 se implice direct \u00een conflictul cu Iranul. Anul trecut, administra\u021bia Trump a anun\u021bat retragerea trupelor \u0219i a eliminat Rom\u00e2nia din programul de scutire de vize. \u00cen acest context, de ce ar trebui Bucure\u0219tiul s\u0103 r\u0103m\u00e2n\u0103 un aliat at\u00e2t de loial al Washingtonului, c\u00e2nd rela\u021bia pare s\u0103 fie unilateral\u0103?<\/p>\n
Anne Applebaum: Nu v\u0103d niciun motiv pentru care Rom\u00e2nia nu ar putea cere ceva \u00een schimbul ajutorului acordat de SUA. Poate solicita reintroducerea programului de scutire de vize, poate cere ajutor \u00een conflictul din Ucraina. Nu v\u0103d niciun motiv pentru care Rom\u00e2nia nu ar putea face acest lucru.<\/p>\n
Dan T\u0103p\u0103lag\u0103: Bine, s\u0103 \u00eencheiem interviul cu o discu\u021bie despre o alt\u0103 problem\u0103 legat\u0103 de conflictul dintre SUA \u0219i Europa. Am v\u0103zut c\u0103 administra\u021bia Trump a acordat sprijin deschis a\u0219a-numitelor partide patriotice din Europa. \u00cen Rom\u00e2nia, partidul de extrem\u0103 dreapta AUR se \u00eenclin\u0103 puternic c\u0103tre mi\u0219carea MAGA. Crede\u021bi c\u0103 administra\u021bia Trump ajut\u0103 \u00een mod activ AUR s\u0103 ajung\u0103 la putere, a\u0219a cum am v\u0103zut tendin\u021be similare \u00een Ungaria sau Germania?<\/p>\n
Anne Applebaum: Pentru a fi clar, exist\u0103 diferite p\u0103r\u021bi ale administra\u021biei Trump. Exist\u0103 o parte a administra\u021biei care este str\u00e2ns legat\u0103 de cea mai radical\u0103 parte a mi\u0219c\u0103rii MAGA, care nu este realmente o mi\u0219care conservatoare, ci una revolu\u021bionar\u0103. Aceasta se opune democra\u021biei liberale \u0219i caut\u0103 s\u0103 sprijine alte tipuri de partide politice care, la fel ca ea, critic\u0103 democra\u021bia liberal\u0103 \u0219i imagineaz\u0103 un fel de sistem autoritar. Sper c\u0103 rom\u00e2nii, care au experien\u021ba recent\u0103 a dictaturii \u00een propria \u021bar\u0103, iar unii oameni \u00ee\u0219i amintesc acest lucru, iar persoanele mai \u00een v\u00e2rst\u0103 \u00ee\u0219i amintesc cu siguran\u021b\u0103 foarte bine, vor avea bunul sim\u021b s\u0103 \u00een\u021beleag\u0103 necesitatea de a rezista acestui tip de discurs. Este atr\u0103g\u0103tor pentru radicali, este atr\u0103g\u0103tor pentru oamenii nemul\u021bumi\u021bi de politic\u0103 din diferite motive, dar nu ofer\u0103 nicio solu\u021bie. Da, exist\u0103 o parte a administra\u021biei care va face acest lucru \u0219i care \u00eel face chiar acum.<\/p>\n
Cu toate acestea, a\u0219 spune c\u0103, \u00een cele din urm\u0103, statul american va colabora cu oricine se afl\u0103 la putere \u00een Rom\u00e2nia. \u0218i dac\u0103 liberalii sunt la putere sau st\u00e2nga este la putere sau actualul pre\u0219edinte este la putere, atunci ace\u0219tia vor fi partenerii lor cei mai importan\u021bi. A\u0219adar, nu m-a\u0219 l\u0103sa distras\u0103 de discursul despre MAGA \u0219i despre rela\u021biile pe care le au aici. Este mult mai pu\u021bin important dec\u00e2t cine este guvernul vostru. \u0218i at\u00e2ta timp c\u00e2t rom\u00e2nii aleg un guvern care este bun pentru ei \u0219i bun pentru Rom\u00e2nia \u0219i care va men\u021bine Rom\u00e2nia solid\u0103 din punct de vedere democratic \u0219i \u00een interiorul Europei, atunci nu cred c\u0103 efortul MAGA este foarte important.<\/p>\n
Dan T\u0103p\u0103lag\u0103: Dar care ar fi scopul final al administra\u021biei Trump, al p\u0103r\u021bii radicale a MAGA, de a sprijini mi\u0219c\u0103rile extremiste din Europa? Ce vor s\u0103 ob\u021bin\u0103 \u00een final?<\/p>\n
Anne Applebaum: Oh, este foarte clar. Scopul lor este s\u0103 distrug\u0103 Uniunea European\u0103. Deci, pentru ei, Uniunea European\u0103 este at\u00e2t un fel de du\u0219man ideologic, deoarece sus\u021bine democra\u021bia, c\u00e2t \u0219i pentru c\u0103 un sus\u021bin\u0103tor important al acestei mi\u0219c\u0103ri provine din industria tehnologic\u0103 american\u0103. De asemenea, se opun Uniunii Europene deoarece este probabil singura organiza\u021bie din lume care poate reglementa companiile tehnologice americane.<\/p>\n
Dan T\u0103p\u0103lag\u0103: \u0218i amendeaz\u0103.<\/p>\n
Anne Applebaum: \u0218i amendeaz\u0103. A\u0219adar, ei ar dori s\u0103 scape de Uniunea European\u0103. \u0218i acest lucru este \u00een\u2026 deci este \u00een interesul c\u00e2torva mari companii din Silicon Valley. Nu este chiar \u00een interesul american. Pentru publicul american, Uniunea European\u0103 este un partener important. Cu siguran\u021b\u0103 nu este \u00een interesul european. F\u0103r\u0103 UE\u2026 acest lucru ar distruge economia Europei. Ar sl\u0103bi Europa. Ar transforma Europa \u00eentr-un fel de, nu \u0219tiu, colonie americano-rus\u0103 f\u0103r\u0103 voce proprie \u00een lume. \u0218i cred c\u0103 europenii, inclusiv rom\u00e2nii, trebuie s\u0103 \u00een\u021beleag\u0103 c\u00e2t de periculoas\u0103 este aceast\u0103 idee \u0219i s\u0103 i se opun\u0103. \u0218i s\u0103 fie foarte precau\u021bi cu acest limbaj anti-european simplist pe care \u00eel aud. \u0218ti\u021bi, este foarte u\u0219or s\u0103 spunem c\u0103 nu ne place UE, c\u0103 nu vrem str\u0103ini \u0219i a\u0219a mai departe.<\/p>\n
Apoi, face\u021bi un pas \u00eenapoi \u0219i aminti\u021bi-v\u0103 ce aduce UE Rom\u00e2niei, ce aduc aceste leg\u0103turi economice \u0219i de securitate mai profunde cu Germania, Fran\u021ba, Spania, Italia, Polonia, Suedia, ce aduc aceste lucruri Rom\u00e2niei? Aici se afl\u0103 securitatea \u0219i interesele voastre na\u021bionale. \u0218i asigura\u021bi-v\u0103 c\u0103 clasa politic\u0103 continu\u0103 s\u0103 o sus\u021bin\u0103. \u0218i, a\u0219a cum am spus, administra\u021bia SUA, atunci c\u00e2nd va avea nevoie de ceva de la Rom\u00e2nia, va trata cu prim-ministrul \u0219i pre\u0219edintele Rom\u00e2niei, nu cu opozi\u021bia rom\u00e2neasc\u0103.<\/p>\n
Dan T\u0103p\u0103lag\u0103: V\u0103 mul\u021bumesc foarte mult, \u0219i Applebaum, pentru c\u0103 a\u021bi fost al\u0103turi de noi la G4 Media.<\/p>\n
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Dan T\u0103p\u0103lag\u0103: We are talking with Anne Applebaum,\u00a0 journalist and the famous historian. Anne is here for a debate at the Expert Forum event, launching her books also. Let\u2019s start our discussion, Anne, with the major theme: the clash between the US and Europe. And we had President Nicu\u0219or Dan recently attended Donald Trump\u2019s Council of Peace in Washington, standing alongside Viktor Orban as the only EU leaders being present at that event. And this looks like a pivot away from Brussels. The question is: is Romania forced to choose between Washington and the EU? Or is this double game, playing to the both ends, a sustainable strategy?<\/p>\n
Anne Applebaum: So first of all, let me say I understand why the Romanian president wants a good relationship with Donald Trump. That makes sense. He\u2019s the leader of Romania\u2019s largest ally. And if he makes a judgment that it\u2019s important to him to appear at an event, then I don\u2019t object to it. However, let me also step back and think a little bit more broadly about the U.S. and Europe, because it is true that for the first time really since 1945, the U.N. and Europe are heading in different directions. The United States formally no longer sees itself as the leader of a democratic camp. The administration doesn\u2019t talk about it that way. Its national security strategy doesn\u2019t see the world that way. They have no special interest in defending Europe or in working with Europe. They\u2019ve described their foreign policy as transactional. They\u2019ll work with whoever suits them at any given moment.<\/p>\n
Given that that is the case, it\u2019s really important that Romanians remember how important their economic stability depends on European integration, that the money Brussels provides in different forms and structural funds and so on is far larger than anything the United States provides, and that ultimately, even in the area of security, It\u2019s other European countries who feel the same kinds of threats as Romania, who will be Romania\u2019s most important long-term friends. And here I\u2019m thinking of Poland. I\u2019m thinking about the Baltic states. I\u2019m also thinking of Scandinavia, Norway, Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, and the U.K. These are the countries that are most focused on the threat from Russia, who feel it personally, who understand it and who will be\u2026 it\u2019s really important that Romania work closely with them in the area of security going forward.<\/p>\n
Dan T\u0103p\u0103lag\u0103:\u00a0 On the other hand, Anne Applebaum, there is a reality, the geography is showing this reality. Romania is not in the position like France or Germany or Great Britain far away from Russia. The truth is Romania is \u2026<\/p>\n
Anne Applebaum: Germany is not that far, but yes.<\/p>\n
Dan T\u0103p\u0103lag\u0103: Okay, but Romania is here very close to Russia and we need support in military terms of the US and in the same time we need to be close to Brussels because the money are coming from Brussels. What should Romania do in this very delicate position?<\/p>\n
Anne Applebaum: So, I mean, of course Romania should seek good relations with the US and at the same time good relations with Europe and there\u2019s, so at the moment there\u2019s no, you\u2019re not being forced to choose.\u00a0 So I don\u2019t think you have to do that yet. But again, I would draw your attention to the fact that for the US administration, a war with Iran, which is a war of choice that the U.S. decided to launch, appears to be more important for Washington than Ukraine\u2019s war with Russia.<\/p>\n
And you need to draw some conclusions from that. You know, as President Zelensky said, something like 800 Patriot air defense missiles. These are the missiles that Ukraine needs to defend its cities from Russian attack. Were used in the Middle East in three days at the beginning of this war. And that\u2019s more than Ukraine has had since 2022.<\/p>\n
So the U.S. is demonstrating that it\u2019s making a choice. It\u2019s choosing to fight a war in the Middle East, and it\u2019s not choosing to defend Ukraine. And that should worry Romanians, because it is in your interest that Ukraine wins this war, and that\u2019s really your primary geopolitical interest right now.<\/p>\n
Dan T\u0103p\u0103lag\u0103:\u00a0 By the way, President Zelensky is arriving in Bucharest tomorrow to meet President Nicu\u0219or Dan. Do you think Zelensky\u2019s worry that Romanian and American support is fading away? Is he here to prevent a scenario where Putin gains the upper hand because the West is looking elsewhere in Iran?<\/p>\n
Anne Applebaum: So, of course, I don\u2019t know why President Zelensky is coming. I don\u2019t have his calendar in front of me. But yes, I mean, I\u2019m sure that for President Zelensky, it\u2019s very important that his main allies, the countries on whom he\u2019s depended to continue the war effort, remain. Not just that they remain in his camp, but they remember what is in their interests. It is in Romania\u2019s interest for Ukraine to win the war. It is not in Romania\u2019s interest for Russia to defeat Ukraine and become more dominant in the region. And so, if he\u2019s coming to remind Romania what is the most important war in the world for Romania, then I think that he\u2019s doing the right thing.<\/p>\n
Dan T\u0103p\u0103lag\u0103: Do you think that Donald Trump would be tempted to strike a deal with Vladimir Putin, essentially ending the war on Russia\u2019s terms, in exchange for Moscow distancing itself from Iran and China?<\/p>\n
Anne Applebaum: So I think that President Trump has been trying to do that for a year. Actually, that is what he wants to do. The trouble is, first of all, that the Russians don\u2019t want to end the war in any way except through the conquest of Ukraine. The Russians have not abandoned their original goal, and their original goal is the destruction of Ukraine as a nation. And they\u2019ve never formally abandoned it. President Putin has never said he wants a ceasefire. They\u2019ve never acceded to any kind of, any halfway measure that would allow Ukraine to exist as a state and for Ukraine to have the assurance that the war won\u2019t begin again two months later after a ceasefire or three months later. Secondly, President Trump doesn\u2019t have the power to end the war on anybody\u2019s terms, because Ukraine has agency and Ukraine can decide what to do, and Europe has agency.<\/p>\n
Europeans can also decide what to. And right now, the war is funded by Europe, not by America. America plays a very, very limited role now in the conflict. And the most important weaponry in the war does not come from the United States. It\u2019s made by Ukrainians. I mean, I think many people don\u2019t understand that Ukraine has in the last four years undergone a kind of revolution in military technology. The Ukrainians are now the world leaders in drone technology. They\u2019re actually providing it right now to some of the Gulf states to help them defend against Iran. And most of the money for that production, again, comes from Europe, not from the United States. So, you know, President Trump doesn\u2019t have the ability to just end the war on Russia\u2019s terms. That\u2019s not within his power.<\/p>\n
Dan T\u0103p\u0103lag\u0103: Even if he ties to.\u00a0<\/p>\n
Anne Applebaum: He has been trying to for months, actually. No, he can\u2019t end it on Russia\u2019s term because there are other people who are interested. Europe has a role and Ukraine, of course, has the main role.<\/p>\n
Dan T\u0103p\u0103lag\u0103:\u00a0 Okay, talking about the Iran war this time, the breaking news in Romania today is the U.S. request to deploy new military capabilities at the Mihail Kogalinshanov base in the south of the country, likely aircraft and radar system. As we speak now, the Supreme Defense Council is debating this request. And given the regional tension, what is your take? Should Romania greenlight this request? And what are the risks of helping the U.S. operations in the Middle East?<\/p>\n
Anne Applebaum: So I think if Romania decides to help the US with its Middle East operation, it should ensure that it gets something in return. Because again, the greatest strategic challenge for Romania right now comes from Russia. It does not come from Iran. And the Romanians should make sure that in exchange for helping the US in the war that Donald Trump has chosen to start, then they should receive help in the war that concerns them, the ongoing war that\u2019s been going on for four years, that affects the Romanian economy, that affects the Romanian security and so on. If they\u2019re going to help the US, they need to get something in return.<\/p>\n
Dan T\u0103p\u0103lag\u0103: The former president of Romania, Traian B\u0103sescu, just posted on Facebook something very similar, saying that the US should know that the access to Kog\u0103lniceanu base has a cost.<\/p>\n
Anne Applebaum: I think that\u2019s right. Romania is, you know, if the US now has a transactional foreign policy where it feels distanced from former allies and it doesn\u2019t feel particularly close to Europe anymore, then Europe also has the right to respond in a more transactional way than in the past.<\/p>\n
Dan T\u0103p\u0103lag\u0103: So let\u2019s be transactional with Trump administration.<\/p>\n
Anne Applebaum: I mean, I don\u2019t like the word transactional, and I don\u2019t like the attitude, because I think what better serves Romania is to be part of a values-based alliance. And right now, the main values-based alliance is in Europe. And I hope that eventually the U.S. returns to that alliance.<\/p>\n
Dan T\u0103p\u0103lag\u0103: Let\u2019s put this request of the U.S. administration in a bigger context, in a European context. We had major European powers like France and Germany have been very hesitant to get directly involved in the conflict with Iran. Last year also, the Trump administration has previously announced troop withdrawals, even removed Romania from visa waiver program. In this context, why should Bucharest remain such a loyal ally to Washington when the relationship seems to be one-sided?<\/p>\n
Anne Applebaum: I see no reason why Romania can\u2019t ask things of the US in return for help. You can ask for the visa waiver program back, you can ask for help in the conflict with Ukraine. I don\u2019t see any reason why Romania cannot do that.<\/p>\n
Dan T\u0103p\u0103lag\u0103: Okay, let\u2019s end our interview with a discussion with another issue regarding the conflict between US and Europe. We saw Trump administration openly given support for so-called patriotic parties across Europe. In Romania, the far-right party AUR is leaning heavily into the MAGA movement. Do you believe the Trump administration is actively helping AUR to reach power as we have seen with similar trends in Hungary or Germany?<\/p>\n
Anne Applebaum: So to be clear, there are different parts of the Trump administration. There is a piece of the administration which is closely connected to the most radical part of the MAGA movement, which is not really a conservative movement, it\u2019s a revolutionary movement. And it opposes liberal democracy, and it seeks to support other kinds of political parties that, like them, also criticize liberal democracy and imagine some kind of authoritarian system. I would hope that Romanians who have recent experience of dictatorship dictatorship in their own country, and some people remember it, and certainly older people remember it very well, would have the sense to understand the need to resist this kind of language. It\u2019s appealing to radicals, it\u2019s appealing to people who are discontented with politics for different reasons, but it doesn\u2019t provide any solutions. So yes, there is a part of the administration that will be doing this and is doing this now.<\/p>\n
However, I would also say that at the end of the day, the American state will deal with whoever is in power in Romania. And if, Liberals are in power or the left is in power or the current president is in power then that\u2019s who they will, that\u2019s who their most important partner will always be. And so I wouldn\u2019t be distracted by this language about MAGA you know, and who their relations are with here. It\u2019s much less important than who your government is. And so as long as Romanians choose a government that\u2019s good for them and good for Romania and will keep Romania solidly democratic and inside Europe, then I don\u2019t think this MAGA effort is very important.<\/p>\n
Dan T\u0103p\u0103lag\u0103: But what would be the final goal of Trump administration, of the radical part of MAGA, to support extremist movements across Europe? What they want to gain in the end?<\/p>\n
Anne Applebaum: Oh, it\u2019s very clear. Their goal is to destroy the European Union. So for them, the European Union is both a kind of ideological enemy because it supports democracy, but also because an important backer of this movement comes from the American tech industry. They also oppose the European Union because it\u2019s the only organization in the world probably that can regulate American technology companies.<\/p>\n
Dan T\u0103p\u0103lag\u0103: And fine.\u00a0<\/p>\n
Anne Applebaum: And fine. And so they would like to get rid of the European Union. And this is in the\u2026so this is in the interests of a few big companies in Silicon Valley. This is not really in American interests. For the American public, the European Union is an important partner. It\u2019s definitely not in European interests. This would destroy, without the EU, it would break up Europe\u2019s economy. It would weaken Europe. It would make Europe a kind of, you know, I don\u2019t know, American-Russian colony without its own voice in the world. And I think Europeans, including Romanians, need to understand how dangerous this idea is and to stand up to it. And be very wary of this facile anti-European language that you hear. You know, it\u2019s very easy to say we don\u2019t like the EU, we don\u2019t want foreigners and so on.<\/p>\n
And then take a step back and remember, what the EU brings to Romania, what these deeper security and economic links, to Germany, to France, to Spain, to Italy, to Poland, to Sweden, what do these things bring to Romania? This is where your security and your national interests lie. And make sure that your political class continues to support it. And as I said, the US administration will, when it needs something from Romania, it will deal with the Romanian Prime Minister and the Romanian President, not the Romanian opposition.<\/p>\n
Dan T\u0103p\u0103lag\u0103: Thank you very much Anne Applebaum for being with us at G4 Media.<\/p>\n
Not\u0103: Interviu transcris cu ajutorul VatisTech\/ Revizuit de G4media.ro<\/p>\n
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