\u201cWhen you go to the Security Council, you don\u2019t just sit with (Russian Ambassador to the UN Vasily) Nebenzya or his crazy deputy \u2014 you also have (Russian Foreign Minister Sergey) Lavrov<\/a> visiting, his deputies coming, and you must not only listen to these toxic, poisonous speeches but also respond to them,\u201d Kyslytsya told the Kyiv Independent in an exclusive interview on July 7.<\/p>\n A career diplomat, Kyslytsya was selected by President Volodymyr Zelensky<\/a> to join the Ukrainian delegation<\/a> in the U.S.-initiated talks with Russia in Istanbul<\/a>, Turkey, this May and June \u2014 the first direct negotiations<\/a> between the two countries since 2022.<\/p>\n However, Kyslytsya argues that the Istanbul meetings, for the most part, couldn\u2019t truly be called negotiations due to Russia\u2019s rigid, ultimatum-like approach<\/a>.<\/p>\n In the interview with the Kyiv Independent, recorded at the Foreign Ministry in Kyiv, Kyslytsya shared insights from the Istanbul talks, explained why he believes the U.S. will remain Ukraine and Europe\u2019s key long-term ally, and spoke about Russia\u2019s growing dependence on its remaining allies to continue the war.<\/p>\n Editor\u2019s Note: This interview was edited for clarity and length. <\/p>\n The Kyiv Independent: At the Istanbul negotiations, the primary task of the Ukrainian delegation was to try to reach a ceasefire agreement with Russia. Was there any flexibility from Russia on this issue or did they insist on their maximalist demands? <\/strong><\/p>\n Sergiy Kyslytsya: <\/strong>First of all, I insist that except for the humanitarian component, there were no negotiations in Istanbul.<\/p>\n Yes, we all arrived in Istanbul \u2014 the Ukrainian delegation, the Russian delegation, both delegations were in the same room, we sat opposite each other, but these were not negotiations.<\/p>\n This was a situation where, in the first and second Istanbul meetings, the Russian side presented their ultimatum demands. It wasn\u2019t even a \u201cmaximalist\u201d approach in the classical sense where you have a range of options and you aim high to get the maximum.<\/p>\n No \u2014 this was a dynamic where you find yourself facing Russians who came with a mandate to dictate an ultimatum. They didn\u2019t even have a mandate to listen to your arguments and seek common ground.<\/p>\n Our mandate had three points: first, ceasefire; second, create conditions for a meeting between the Ukrainian president and the Kremlin dictator; and third, confidence-building measures, which included humanitarian issues, such as prisoner exchanges.<\/p>\n They (Russians) were categorically opposed (to the ceasefire). Both at the first and second meetings, they firmly rejected the possibility of an unconditional ceasefire before a leaders\u2019 meeting.<\/p>\n In this third point, there was at least some conversation \u2014 I wouldn\u2019t even call it negotiations, but rather a dialogue. At the first Istanbul meeting, one Russian representative told me: \u201cI can\u2019t leave the room empty-handed. We must at least agree on prisoner exchanges.\u201d<\/p>\n The Kyiv Independent: Are there currently talks about another meeting?<\/strong><\/p>\n Sergiy Kyslytsya: <\/strong>This format has practically exhausted itself if this delegation does not receive another mandate from its master \u2014 from (Russian President Vladimir) Putin<\/a>.<\/p>\n Unlike the Ukrainian delegation, which has clear discipline but also real discussions inside the team \u2013 because within the directives set by the president, we still exchange ideas and approaches \u2013 on the Russian side, there is very rigid discipline in carrying out Putin\u2019s mandate.<\/p>\n And Putin\u2019s mandate is to force capitulation. Their logic is the opposite of ours. We say: let\u2019s create a ceasefire as a contribution to establishing proper conditions for a leaders\u2019 summit, to create a constructive environment that facilitates agreements.<\/p>\n They openly say: \u201cNo, first you accept our demands \u2013 capitulation \u2013 and only then do we organize the leaders\u2019 meeting. And after that, you work on implementing those demands.\u201d<\/p>\n The Kyiv Independent: Why does Ukraine keep insisting on a Zelensky-Putin meeting?<\/strong><\/p>\n Sergiy Kyslytsya: <\/strong>Because due to the complexity, the depth of Europe\u2019s largest war and all its consequences, in combination with Russia\u2019s dictatorship \u2014 where everything depends on the will of one person \u2014 experts (delegations) cannot achieve breakthrough results on their own.<\/p>\n This, in my view, is one of the elements of Russia\u2019s tactic: They suggest, \u201cLet\u2019s have our experts meet, exchange phone numbers, for them to communicate among themselves.\u201d<\/p>\n We saw this before in the endless Minsk process groups. Lots of movement, people traveled, sat together, held endless meetings \u2014 but there were no results.<\/p>\n The same here. They bureaucratize the process so that when you say to Putin: \u201cWe should meet,\u201d he replies: \u201cWhy? The experts are working.\u201d<\/p>\n It\u2019s also what they tell the Americans: \u201cSee, we are sitting down with the Ukrainians.\u201d<\/p>\n By the way, they still refer to us as \u201cRussians.\u201d In the second Istanbul meeting, Medinsky said, \u201cThis is a war where Russians kill Russians.\u201d<\/p>\n He sits across from you, from the Ukrainian defense minister, from the first deputy minister of defense, from all kinds of military representatives \u2014 and he says to your face: \u201cYou do not exist as a nation, as a country. This is a situation where Russians kill Russians.\u201d<\/p>\n The Kyiv Independent: After a series of steps back from Washington, is there an understanding in Ukraine now that America is no longer involved in the peace process?<\/strong><\/p>\n Sergiy Kyslytsya: <\/strong>Under any circumstances, the United States will remain our key partner.<\/p>\n This is a sine qua non \u2014 without it, Ukraine\u2019s secure and successful existence is impossible. Because of the role that the U.S. plays and will continue to play in the coming years. Even if they reduce or suspend aid, or pull out of some diplomatic processes related to negotiations, they will remain fundamentally involved.<\/p>\n Even if ultimately \u2014 and I think this is the right trajectory \u2014 Europeans take on greater responsibility for their own security, in the foreseeable future, despite all the political hype in America, the U.S. will remain Europe\u2019s key ally.<\/p>\n Therefore, it is the duty of every Ukrainian official to find ways to maintain and strengthen our partnership with the U.S., and to develop it.<\/p>\n The Kyiv Independent: Regardless of whether the U.S. will position itself as an ally of Europe or Ukraine?<\/strong><\/p>\n Sergiy Kyslytsya:<\/strong> The United States, for at least the last 100 years, has gone through cycles of more isolationist approaches.<\/p>\n This happened before World War II, in the 60s and 70s after the Vietnam War, when growing pacifism influenced defense doctrines and security policies.<\/p>\n But then in the 1980s, the U.S. and the U.K. became the driving force behind revising security and defense policies.<\/p>\n Thanks to that shift, the socialist camp in Central and Eastern Europe cracked and then collapsed, followed by the dissolution of the Soviet Union.<\/p>\n It\u2019s a very simplified analogy, but if we look at what is happening today, we see a lot of repetition \u2014 a similar cycle.<\/p>\n Because now there is talk of rearming Europe, producing large quantities not only of shells but of entire weapons systems. The entire military-industrial complex on both sides of the ocean will work at new levels of capacity.<\/p>\n But you can\u2019t compare Russia\u2019s economic power even to that of the Soviet Union.<\/p>\n I welcome the fact that most European leaders realized they need to step out of their comfort zone.<\/p>\n Maybe it\u2019s not a pacifist zone like it was in the 60s\u201370s, but it is a zone of hedonism and sybaritism.<\/p>\n They must decide to leave this comfort zone and explain to their voters that the biblical right to a vacation can only be realized if your vacation is protected by air defense systems, if your companies produce enough ammunition, if modern drones fly over European skies, if electronic warfare systems work, if you don\u2019t just have weapons in storage but also people capable of using them.<\/p>\n Even though we now see positive dynamics in Europe, it is incredibly slow, and there is a lot of frustration in Ukraine because of this.<\/p>\n It\u2019s slow, but also, in my opinion, in some countries, it hasn\u2019t yet reached a deep enough level to become irreversible.<\/p>\n The Kyiv Independent: Do you think it will get to an irreversible point in the future?<\/strong><\/p>\n Sergiy Kyslytsya: <\/strong>To change this trend, you need not only an external threat \u2014 which most responsible politicians in Europe now recognize exists \u2014 but also national leaders willing to stand in front of their voters and not feed them political fast food, but tell them the truth.<\/p>\n Unfortunately, even before the (full-scale) war, in my opinion, Europe \u2014 especially within the EU \u2014 at some stage lost politicians of a pan-European scale with a visionary understanding of where Europe should go.<\/p>\n The Kyiv Independent: Today, in your opinion, are there such leaders in Europe?<\/strong><\/p>\n Sergiy Kyslytsya: <\/strong>I am very inspired by (German) Chancellor (Friedrich) Merz\u2019s statements<\/a>, for example.<\/p>\n I am inspired by the U.K.\u2019s position<\/a>, which has been consistent. I also believe there is a very healthy situation in the Baltic and Scandinavian countries.<\/p>\n Of course, like in any true democratic society, there is active political competition from different parts of the spectrum. But when it comes to Ukraine, they have cross-party agreement \u2014 if not full consensus, at least a clear understanding of the need to support Ukraine.<\/p>\n The Kyiv Independent: When we talk about Europe moving to a new level of leadership, what else does Europe need to do, besides serious rearmament, to become that global leader?<\/strong><\/p>\n Sergiy Kyslytsya: <\/strong>Well, I don\u2019t want to sound like a mentor to Europe \u2014 that wouldn\u2019t be appropriate.<\/p>\n But Europe needs to understand that today and in the near future, there is only one army in Europe capable of defending Europe. That army is the Armed Forces of Ukraine.<\/p>\n So they should accept this and make the most of the fact that Ukrainian soldiers and officers can protect Europe.<\/p>\n The Kyiv Independent: Is Ukraine doing everything possible to convey the urgency to Europe?<\/strong><\/p>\n Sergiy Kyslytsya: <\/strong>There is no limit to improvement. A lot is being done.<\/p>\n But to move along a progressive trajectory, you need resources, desire, and intelligence. (Diplomacy) also requires creativity, but creativity can\u2019t replace the need for deep knowledge.<\/p>\n Take America as an example.<\/p>\n In my deep conviction, not only Ukrainians but also many Europeans have lived for decades with quite stereotypical and rosy ideas about what the U.S. is. Part of these ideas came from American pop culture. Part was simply due to a lack of knowledge of U.S. history.<\/p>\n It was only in recent years that President (Zelensky) set the task of developing Ukraine\u2019s cooperation with U.S. regions. After he visited Utah<\/a>, it was systematically decided to develop relationships not just with Manhattan or D.C., but with the regions.<\/p>\n But you need an enormous resource to \u201ccover\u201d every Colorado or Oklahoma. But it\u2019s precisely the Midwest that elects the political leadership.<\/p>\n That is why it is the duty of Ukrainian diplomacy to find a way to explain to tens of millions of Americans why America will not be great if Ukraine falls.<\/p>\n In exactly that formula. Because you won\u2019t reach the American heart by just talking about Ukraine\u2019s importance.<\/p>\n Americans, who are brought up as patriots from childhood, need to be explained why, in their view, the greatest, strongest, most exceptional America can only remain that way if Ukraine is free.<\/p>\n The Kyiv Independent: Could you explain to our audience why you think so? Why, if Ukraine isn\u2019t free, America can\u2019t be great?<\/strong><\/p>\n Sergiy Kyslytsya: <\/strong>Achieving the MAGA goal is impossible if, under the current administration, Russia defeats Ukraine. It would be an incredible blow to the reputation of the U.S. as the strongest country in the world. It\u2019s that simple.<\/p>\n Arguments like \u201cUkraine is the breadbasket of Europe,\u201d \u201cUkraine is in the center of Europe,\u201d \u201cUkraine has a long history,\u201d \u201cWe have the best of this and that\u201d \u2014 these do not resonate with Americans.<\/p>\n They have a completely different psychology. They are a huge country psychologically. They are moved by everything that confirms their exceptionalism and makes them feel even greater.<\/p>\n Ukraine\u2019s victory with U.S. help would solidify each American\u2019s sense that they are not losers.<\/p>\n Because one of the greatest taboos for any American, in any aspect of life, is to be seen as a loser.<\/p>\n The Kyiv Independent: Speaking of U.S. diplomacy, Politico<\/a> published a widely discussed article, in which multiple American and Ukrainian officials criticized Zelensky\u2019s chief of staff, Andriy Yermak<\/a>, for his poor diplomatic skills and knowledge in talks with the Americans. Do you think Yermak\u2019s involvement in negotiations with the U.S. is appropriate?<\/strong><\/p>\n Sergiy Kyslytsya:<\/strong> I believe that this is a purely provocative publication aimed at stirring things up.<\/p>\n His role is critical. Because if you look at how structures work in most European and North American countries, you\u2019ll see that there are National Security Advisors or key presidential advisers who do not replace the role of foreign ministers but perform key functions next to presidents or prime ministers.<\/p>\n So ministers talk to ministers, but Andriy Borysovych (Yermak) is in that very narrow circle of key presidential advisers.<\/p>\n And if someone thinks anyone is perfect in this world, that\u2019s not true.<\/p>\n The Kyiv Independent: Looking ahead to the rest of this year, what would be a significant but realistic diplomatic achievement for Ukraine?<\/strong><\/p>\n Sergiy Kyslytsya:<\/strong> Preserving the unity and resolve of all our transatlantic partners during this critical moment of our struggle for independence and freedom.<\/p>\n And it\u2019s not empty words or slogans \u2014 it\u2019s a reality. You just need to internalize how important it is.<\/p>\n Because Russia\u2019s propaganda machine and its henchmen work powerfully.<\/p>\n At the same time, I would add that in my opinion, as a result of this aggressive war, Russia has largely lost its sovereignty.<\/p>\n Russia has found itself, due to its leader\u2019s reckless actions, in relationships with certain global players<\/a> without whose support it wouldn\u2019t survive \u2014 not only in this war but even as a functioning state.<\/p>\n Today, Russia is perhaps more vulnerable than ever in its history.<\/p>\n It had to sacrifice part of its sovereignty to get economic and political support from actors who were never historically natural partners of the Russian Empire, the Soviet Union, or the Russian Federation.<\/p>\n Note from the author:<\/p>\n Hi! This is Toma Istomina, deputy chief editor. The week I worked on this piece, not a single day passed without a Russian overnight attack on Ukraine. One day brought a record-setting assault in terms of the number of weapons used. Another day, we lived through what felt like the loudest and most intense attack on Kyiv since 2022. Reporting from Kyiv comes with many challenges \u2014 constant stress, little sleep \u2014 but despite it all, we choose to stay here to bring you the truth about Russia\u2019s brutal war. And we couldn\u2019t do this without the support of our amazing community. Please consider becoming a member of the Kyiv Independent\u2019s 20,000-strong community to help keep our journalism going.<\/a><\/p>\nDefense Minister Rustem Umerov (L) and Deputy Foreign Minister Sergiy Kyslytsya (R) leave after attending the second round of Ukraine-Russia peace talks at the Ciragan Palace in Istanbul, Turkey, on June 2, 2025. . (Photo by Burak Kara\/Getty Images)
Defense Minister Rustem Umerov (2L), First Deputy Foreign Minister Sergiy Kyslytsya (L), Deputy Head of the Main Intelligence Directorate of the Ministry of Defense Vadym Skibitskyi (C), Advisor to the Head of the President’s Office Oleksandr Bevz (2R), and Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Heorhii Tykhyi (R) give statements to the press at the Ciragan Palace following the second round of Russia-Ukraine peace talks in Istanbul, Turkey, on June 2, 2025. (Photo by Arif Hudaverdi Yaman\/Anadolu via Getty Images)
Head of the Ukrainian delegation and Ukraine’s Defense Minister Rustem Umerov (C) and First Deputy Foreign Minister Sergiy Kyslytsya (L), sit with delegation members as they attend a second meeting of Ukrainian and Russian delegation direct talks at the Ciragan Palace, in Istanbul, on June 2, 2025. (Photo by Adem Altan \/ AFP via Getty Images)<\/p>\n
Sergiy Kyslytsya, first deputy foreign minister of Ukraine, photographed at Ukraine’s Foreign Ministry in Kyiv, Ukraine on July 7, 2025. (Danylo Pavlov \/ The Kyiv Independent)<\/p>\n
Sergiy Kyslytsya, Ukraine’s former ambassador to the United Nations (UN), reads a copy of Time magazine as Dmitry Polyanskiy, Russia’s deputy ambassador to the United Nations (UN), not pictured, speaks during a Security Council meeting at UN headquarters in New York, United States, on Aug. 28, 2024. (Photo: Yuki Iwamura\/Bloomberg via Getty Images)
Sergiy Kyslytsya, Ukraine’s former ambassador to the United Nations, shows documents as he speaks during an emergency meeting in the wake of Rusia’s deadly strikes against Ukraine, at UN headquarters in New York, the United States, on July 9, 2024. (Photo by Angela Weiss\/AFP via Getty Images)<\/p>\n
Sergiy Kyslytsya, first deputy foreign minister of Ukraine, photographed at Ukraine’s Foreign Ministry in Kyiv, Ukraine on July 7, 2025. (Danylo Pavlov \/ The Kyiv Independent)<\/p>\n
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