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A UK minister appeared to \u201crow back\u201d on a commitment to devolve powers over probation and youth justice to Wales, with Westminster set to retain responsibility.<\/p>\n
In 2019, an independent commission \u2013 led by Lord Thomas, the former head of the judiciary \u2013\u00a0recommended<\/a>\u00a0that justice policy should be \u201cdetermined and delivered\u201d in Wales.<\/p>\n But, nearly six years on, devolution has stalled, with Welsh and UK ministers suggesting a phased and piecemeal approach to transferring powers as happened in Greater Manchester.<\/p>\n In November, a\u00a0report\u00a0set out<\/a>\u00a0three options for devolution: transfer of executive powers, full law-making and executive responsibilities, or an agreement on commissioning services.<\/p>\n And, giving evidence to the Senedd equality and social justice committee today, ministers implied the Welsh and UK Governments will pursue the co-commissioning model.<\/p>\n \u2018Sticking plasters\u2019<\/strong><\/p>\n Lord Timpson, the UK prisons and probation minister, intimated that devolution would not be a priority amid \u201cmassive pressures\u201d on the justice system.<\/p>\n Mick Antoniw, the former counsel general or chief legal adviser to the Welsh Government, pointed to \u201cvolumes of evidence\u201d that devolution of probation \u201cneeds to happen and quickly\u201d.<\/p>\n Lord Timpson, who lives over the border but near HMP Berwyn, one of the UK\u2019s biggest prisons, said colleagues have had a meeting on local delivery options for youth justice.<\/p>\n He told the committee UK ministers would look at the Greater Manchester model but he cautioned of \u201chuge\u201d pressures and a need for stability.<\/p>\n \u201cIf we lurch from problem to problem, we are just going to\u00a0put sticking\u00a0plasters all over everything,\u201d he said, advocating \u201csensible, sustainable and evidence-led\u201d policy instead.<\/p>\n \u2018Decade of delay\u2019<\/strong><\/p>\n Lord Timpson stated he was more concerned about challenges in probation than prisons \u2013 warning the service is unstable, with probation officers having an average caseload of 35.<\/p>\n Mr Antoniw pressed his Labour colleague about the need to transfer powers over probation, given that many of the levers for keeping people out of prison are devolved.<\/p>\n \u201cIt seems to me there\u2019s no logical response to that other than we\u2019ve had a decade of delay on actually looking at the enormous accumulation of evidence,\u201d he said.<\/p>\n \u201cWhat you seem to be suggesting is that we\u2019re going to go through that process of just continually looking at the evidence without ever really coming to a proper conclusion.\u201d<\/p>\n Lord Timpson \u2013 who was chief executive of Timpson, the retailer founded by his father Sir John, until 2024 \u2013 warned probation remained \u201cbruised\u201d from previous reforms.<\/p>\n \u2018Not ruling anything in or out\u2019<\/strong><\/p>\n \u201cWe need to be in a much more stable position before we can start talking about further changes,\u201d he said, referring to the Conservatives\u2019 \u201ctransforming rehabilitation\u201d\u00a0programme<\/a>.<\/p>\n Pressed by Adam Price, the former MP and ex-Plaid Cymru leader, Lord Timpson suggested devolution will not be a priority until \u201cmassive pressures\u201d stabilise.<\/p>\n Mr Price pointed out that powers over budgets and making laws would remain at Westminster under a co-commissioning model similar to Manchester\u2019s.<\/p>\n He asked: \u201cAre you saying that\u2026 the full devolution of executive and legislative powers, that\u2019s not something that is on your agenda?\u201d<\/p>\n Lord Timpson reiterated his focus on making prison and probation services sustainable. Pinned down on the point, the politician replied: \u201cI\u2019m not ruling anything out, I\u2019m not ruling anything in. What I\u2019m focused on is trying to sort out the crisis in our justice system.\u201d<\/p>\n \u201898% full\u2019<\/strong><\/p>\n Labour\u2019s Jenny Rathbone questioned why more than 25% of the 5,000 Welsh prisoners are held in English jails when Wales has nearly 6,000 prison places of its own.<\/p>\n Lord Timpson pointed to capacity pressures with prisons 98.2% full, security in terms of organised crime, and the lack of a category A (high risk) or women\u2019s prison in Wales.<\/p>\n He told the committee: \u201cWe need to use the estate really efficiently and that means, unfortunately, some Welsh prisoners are not in prisons in Wales.\u201d<\/p>\n Jane Dodds, leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrats, expressed concerns about research\u00a0showing<\/a>\u00a0Wales has the highest imprisonment rate in western Europe.<\/p>\n Lord Timpson replied: \u201c80% of offending is reoffending and, clearly, something has been going wrong for a long time. Our prisons are growing and we\u2019re going to have more people in prison by the time of the next election than at any other time in our history.\u201d<\/p>\n \u2018Jagged edge\u2019<\/strong><\/p>\n In 2019, a Cardiff University report\u00a0warned<\/a>\u00a0of the \u201cjagged edge\u201d of justice, with intersecting responsibilities and Wales often overlooked by Westminster.<\/p>\n Ms Rathbone, who chairs the committee, warned: \u201cI\u2019m concerned about stabilising a broken system because it\u2019s costing a fortune to the taxpayer and the individuals caught up in it.\u201d<\/p>\n She called for an explanation of \u201cno progress\u201d on matters that have been \u201cdiscussed endlessly for decades\u201d, citing the example of a women\u2019s residential centre in Swansea.<\/p>\n Lord Timpson said: \u201cI think we need to look at the options, we need to look at the costs,\u201d adding that the key is how to divert women from the justice system in the first place.<\/p>\n Altaf Hussain, a Conservative Senedd member, expressed concerns about deaths at HMP Parc amid a \u201cserious decline in standards\u201d at the prison in Bridgend.<\/p>\n \u2018Drone-proof\u2019<\/strong><\/p>\n Lord Timpson, whose younger brother was a Tory MP, replied: \u201cThey\u2019ve obviously had a terrible number of self-inflicted deaths at the prison but I think things feel far more stable.\u201d<\/p>\n He said the governor told him 98% of problems are down to drugs, with drone-proof windows set to be installed by August 2026. \u201cThat will make a significant difference,\u201d he said.<\/p>\n Ms Dodds raised wider problems: \u201cThe prison inspectorate\u00a0reported<\/a>\u00a0there\u2019s not enough food to eat, prisoners are stuck in their cells 21 hours a day [and] self harm has gone up by 60%.\u201d<\/p>\n Lord Timpson stressed the Labour UK Government inherited a system in crisis. \u201cI\u2019ve never known it so bad,\u201d he said, pointing to \u201cbig strides\u201d over the past 12 months.<\/p>\n He left the scrutiny session more than 20 minutes early to vote in the House of Lords.<\/p>\n \u2018Cold water\u2019<\/strong><\/p>\n Following the meeting on July 14, the Senedd\u2019s equality and justice committee criticised the \u201cdeeply disappointing\u201d evidence from Lord Timpson.<\/p>\n Ms Rathbone said \u201cWe are very disappointed to hear Lord Timpson say that the UK Government could row back its promises on the devolution of youth justice and probation.<\/p>\n \u201cThese policies were supported by several significant constitutional reports and endorsed by the independent\u00a0commission<\/a>\u00a0on the constitutional future of Wales.<\/p>\n