Tensions have flared between the NSW premier’s top adviser and an opposition MP in a highly anticipated appearance before an inquiry into the Dural caravan plot and the criminalisation of hate speech.
Five NSW political staffers began giving evidence on Friday morning, one week after they risked arrest for failing to appear.
The staffers include Premier Chris Minns’s chief-of-staff James Cullen, deputy chief-of-staff Edward Ovadia and his director of media and communications Sarah Michael.
The police minister’s chief-of-staff Ross Neilson and deputy chief-of-staff Tilly South are also appearing.
On January 19, NSW Police were alerted to a tip-off about a suspicious caravan at a property in Sydney’s Dural and later found it filled with explosives and a note referencing the Great Jewish Synagogue.
The incident followed several antisemitic attacks across the country, but was revealed in March to be manufactured by organised crime.
The inquiry is examining what the staffers knew about the caravan plot. (ABC News)
The inquiry is examining what the senior political staffers knew about the “terror” plot, which police later determined to be a “criminal con job”, when the government was introducing legislation to combat antisemitism.
On Friday, Mr Cullen was questioned on language Mr Minns used at the time, when he said “there is only one way of calling it out, and that is terrorism”.
Mr Cullen said the premier was “very much capable of coming up with his own lines”.
“The reason that language was being used at that press conference is because it was exactly the language and the briefing that police provided the premier in the lead-up to the conference,” he said.
Three bills passed after caravan incident
Liberal committee member Susan Carter questioned Mr Cullen about what support his boss had offered in relation to the inquiry.
A tense exchange ensued between the MP and the staffer, with both talking over each other.
“Look, you can fight with the question or your can answer it. What would you like to do?” Ms Carter said to Mr Cullen.
Mr Cullen said he first learnt the caravan bomb was no longer being pursued as an act of terrorism in late February — but it is unclear whether that was before hate speech legislation passed the parliament.
“Effectively there was a finalised view from police … when the AFP source was discredited on the 21st of February,” Mr Cullen said.
“I recall after — I think it would have been NSW Police — got legal advice confirming that at that point they couldn’t pursue terrorism charges … not long after that getting — might have been Mr Neilson — letting me know that police had contacted the minister or the minister’s office, that that had been the case.”
A tense exchange occurred early on between Liberal committee member, Susan Carter, and the premier’s chief of staff, James Cullen. (ABC News: Greg Bigelow)
A bill criminalising the incitement of racial hatred passed the parliament on February 21, having been introduced three days earlier.
“I suppose then the next step was … the press conference with the AFP and NSW Police on the tenth of March outlining the results of their investigation.”
Mr Neilson said three bills which criminalised racial hate speech, banned protest near religious places and increased penalties for displaying Nazi symbols near synagogues were conceived before the discovery of the caravan.
He said he thought some of the work on the changes began as early as December last year and “been flagged by the premier in one way or the another” prior to revelations about the caravan.
“The relationship that’s been constructed by some between the Dural caravan event and the passage of those three pieces of legislation is extremely unfortunate and unfair,”
Mr Cullen said.
Mr Cullen pointed to the second reading speeches explaining the intention of the legislation, none of which make mention of the Dural caravan incident.
Staffers questioned over summons
The staffers were summonsed to appear at the inquiry last Friday but failed to do so, arguing “it is ministers, rather than their staff, who are accountable to the parliament”.
Benjamin Franklin, the president of the Legislative Council, threatened to exercise powers under the Parliamentary Evidence Act to have the staffers arrested and brought before the inquiry.
The staffers argued the summonses were not validly issued and that they had “important reasons” for not appearing. They also claimed the powers of arrest under the 124-year-old law, which have never been used, were unconstitutional.
Mr Franklin sought legal advice from eminent barrister Bret Walker SC, who gave an opinion rejecting these arguments, prompting the staffers to change their minds.
The staffers were grilled about being summoned last Friday. (ABC News: Greg Bigelow)
Ms Michael denied breaking the law when she and her colleagues failed to appear last week.
“You were untroubled by breaking the law?” Ms Carter asked.
“It wasn’t that we were breaking the law here. It’s just we needed to get more advice about what our rights were,” Ms Michael said.
“Do you always get advice about whether a law is valid or not before you follow it?” Ms Carter said.
“In this particular instance — I like to think of myself a law-abiding citizen — so in this instance, yes,” Ms Michael replied.
Mr Neilson said the staffers believed their non-attendance was not illegal.
“We had advice that we had just cause and reasonable excuse not to attend, and therefore we wouldn’t be breaking the law,” Mr Neilson said.
Premier and staff ‘focused on the people of NSW’
Mr Cullen said communications with the premier about the in the first few weeks were in person or over the phone.
Mr Roberts questioned him about the lack of records kept by the premier’s office on the initial briefings from police.
“I find it extraordinary that there is not a single note being kept on the most significant security event,” Mr Roberts said.
Mr Cullen replied it was appropriate police documented the events as the lead agency in the investigation.
NSW Premier Chris Minns said he’d let his staff “speak for themselves” at the inquiry. (ABC News: Nandini Dhir)
Earlier Mr Minns said he had let his staff “speak for themselves”.
“My position on it is very well ventilated,” he said at a press conference on Friday.
“I couldn’t be clearer about the government and my perspective, but we are where we are.
“I guess my main message is that there may well be shenanigans in the New South Wales legislative council but myself, my ministers and even my staff, when they’re not appearing in front of parliament committees, are actually focused on the people of New South Wales.”
The premier added that he understood “some people, as part of their job, will try and divert us from that”.