Hamlin said he spotted France eating alone at lunch during the NASCAR Awards week in Nashville, so Hamlin joined France \u2014 and came away \u201cvery, very discouraged\u201d by their conversation.<\/p>\n
\u201cHe told me directly the problem in NASCAR is teams spend too much money,\u201d Hamlin recounted, adding France said teams should only be spending $10 million per season to run their cars rather than the current $20 million average.<\/p>\n
Hamlin responded by saying it was not realistic to cut his costs in half.<\/p>\n
\u201cWe\u2019ve cut this grass so short, we\u2019re down to the dirt,\u201d Hamlin said of cost-cutting by the teams.<\/p>\n
Hamlin said he told France he was \u201cnot trying to be a statistic\u201d and add to the many owners who have gone out of business, and Hamlin asked France how he could recoup his investment in the sport.<\/p>\n
\u201cHe had no answer,\u201d Hamlin said.<\/p>\n
![\"Denny](\"https:\/\/www.europesays.com\/us\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/12\/GettyImages-2248872063-scaled.jpg\")
<\/p>\n
\n Hamlin, left, leaving the courthouse on Monday. (Grant Baldwin \/ Getty Images)<\/p>\n
Hamlin rejected the notion that NASCAR was doing teams a favor by offering a renewable seven-year term on the 2025 charter agreements because it locked teams into a dollar amount with no negotiations rather than a percentage of the next media rights deal.<\/p>\n
The 2025 charter agreement was so bad, Hamlin felt, \u201cwe will not be in business if we sign this (within) 10 years.\u201d<\/p>\n
\u201cThis is essentially my (team\u2019s) death certificate for the future,\u201d he said.<\/p>\n
Asked if bringing a lawsuit in response was the right decision in light of the charter negotiations, Hamlin said, \u201cI think it was the only decision.\u201d<\/p>\n
\u201cIt\u2019s time for change,\u201d he said. \u201cAll I knew is we were right and what they did was wrong.\u201d<\/p>\n
Hamlin said 23XI\u2019s profit margin was 2.26 percent, but said, \u201cI\u2019m one sponsor away\u201d from having \u201call this profit gone.\u201d His most optimistic goal, as stated in documents, was to reach a 10 percent profit margin.<\/p>\n
However, under cross-examination, Buterman asked if Hamlin thought it was fair to be asking the jury for $205 million in damages \u2014 a 900 percent return on Hamlin\u2019s investment, Buterman noted \u2014 to which Hamlin struggled to answer and said he would leave the financial questions to the expert witnesses.<\/p>\n
\u201cWe want to be made whole for what you guys did to us,\u201d Hamlin told Buterman.<\/p>\n
In an attempt to use Hamlin\u2019s own words against him, Buterman showed Hamlin a pitch deck the driver had presented to Jordan before forming 23XI that sang the praises of the NASCAR financial model and the Next Gen car.<\/p>\n
But Hamlin countered by saying he \u201cbelieved NASCAR when they told me it would cut operating costs by 40 percent,\u201d which ultimately was not the case.<\/p>\n
Buterman then noted Hamlin went on former driver Kenny Wallace\u2019s podcast and said the Next Gen car, which requires teams to source parts from a single supplier in an effort to bring parity, was a positive for the sport \u2014 something the teams have now used as a key point in trying to prove NASCAR illegally abused its monopoly power.<\/p>\n
An animated Hamlin responded by saying he was doing NASCAR a favor by telling fans such things on a podcast and \u201cpainting a rosy picture\u201d about what NASCAR wanted drivers to say publicly.<\/p>\n
\u201cAll my public (comments) are out of context,\u201d Hamlin said about Buterman\u2019s exhibits, adding that if he was negative publicly, \u201cyou guys have an issue with that\u201d and there would be repercussions for him at the racetrack.<\/p>\n
\u201cYou\u2019re able to essentially dictate how I do,\u201d Hamlin said.<\/p>\n
Buterman then asked if that means people cannot trust what Hamlin says publicly.<\/p>\n
\u201cThat\u2019s nonsense,\u201d Hamlin said. \u201cWhat I do publicly is put out (positive messages). That\u2019s my job. You give me talking points, I say it to make fans feel happy.\u201d<\/p>\n
Buterman then showed Hamlin communications with Jordan about \u201clocking up\u201d driver Corey Heim and wondered why it was OK for Hamlin to try to \u201clock up\u201d a driver under contract while complaining NASCAR had \u201clocked up\u201d racetracks for stock car events.<\/p>\n
Buterman also noted 23XI drivers get paid a smaller percentage than NASCAR pays teams and asked why it was acceptable for 23XI driver Riley Herbst to race under an exclusivity clause while Hamlin complained about NASCAR\u2019s own exclusivity clauses in the lawsuit.<\/p>\n
\u201cWe are not a monopoly,\u201d a frustrated Hamlin said. \u201cThe driver has options. That\u2019s the difference. It\u2019s not anti-competitive if the driver has options.\u201d<\/p>\n
Hamlin said he makes $14 million per season from Joe Gibbs Racing, the team he drives for in the NASCAR Cup Series, and has personally invested $10 million into 23XI \u2014 but owes Jordan tens of millions of dollars in loans. That includes 40 percent of the costs for 23XI and 50 percent of the $35 million building 23XI constructed, called \u201cAirspeed.\u201d<\/p>\n
Buterman noted messages from Jordan\u2019s chief financial officer, Gene Mason, and 23XI co-owner Curtis Polk calling Hamlin a \u201cterrible businessman\u201d who \u201cspends money recklessly.\u201d<\/p>\n
However, Hamlin brushed off the disagreements, saying it was their job to try to keep him in check.<\/p>\n
\u201cMe and Michael, we want to win,\u201d Hamlin said as Jordan smiled and nodded.<\/p>\n
Jordan, sitting in the front row of the courtroom, often appeared amused and outright delighted by Hamlin\u2019s combativeness with Buterman. He grinned, smirked, shook his head and laughed on several occasions.<\/p>\n