\u201cThe day that [Vol. 1] was released, I paced around all day,\u201d Matt says. \u201cI did absolutely nothing, just waiting for reactions to come in and reviews to come in because you really never know how people are going to react. There\u2019s pros and cons to the show growing in size in the way it did \u2014 people just take it apart to an insane degree. It\u2019s scary, always scary. You never really get used to it.\u201d<\/p>\n
But the self-doubt keeps them sharp, he says. \u201cIt forces you to not get lazy.\u201d<\/p>\n
\u201cIt\u2019s a balance between feeling very confident, then it swings to being very insecure about it \u2014 and it\u2019s hard to keep sight,\u201d Ross adds. \u201cYou watch these episodes dozens and dozens of times over and over again. And the strange thing about this show is that a very small group of people had seen the episodes, a really small circle, then suddenly you\u2019re just blasting it out to millions of people all at the same time.\u201d<\/p>\n
The pair are sitting on a couch in the office they share \u2014 \u201cE.T.,\u201d \u201cAlien\u201d and \u201cBatman Returns\u201d posters adorn the walls \u2014 at their facilities, Upside Down Productions, in Los Angeles. While they were able to revel in fan reaction for a few days after the release of Vol. 1, they\u2019re back in work mode. At this point, they still have to finalize sound and color, as well as some visual effects, on the series finale. <\/p>\n
\u201cVery boring visual effects,\u201d Matt quips. \u201cIf I have to look at one more shot of spores and fog, I\u2019m going to lose my mind.\u201d<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
Nancy Wheeler (Natalia Dyer), Jonathan Byers (Charlie Heaton), Steve Harrington (Joe Keery) and Dustin Henderson (Gaten Matarazzo) in Season 5 of \u201cStranger Things.\u201d<\/p>\n
(Netflix)<\/p>\n
For now, the drip-drop release around the year-end holidays continues, with Vol. 2 (Episodes 5 through 7) now streaming. The episodes contain some of the season\u2019s bigger emotional beats, including one of TV\u2019s most amicable breakups between teenagers, a mended friendship and a character finally living his true self openly. The Duffers discussed that and more in this edited conversation.<\/p>\n
Let\u2019s start with those final 10 minutes of Episode 7. Will [Noah Schnapp] shares a part of himself that he\u2019s kept secret for a long time. He <\/b>realizes <\/b>that if he wants to be successful in defeating <\/b>Vecna<\/b><\/a>, he <\/b>can\u2019t<\/b> feel afraid about this part of myself. How did you decide <\/b>Will\u2019s <\/b>coming out would be <\/b>revealed<\/b>?<\/b><\/p>\n Matt:<\/b> It\u2019s something that we\u2019ve been planning to do for a really long time. Initially, it was planned for Season 4, and we just felt it was unearned by the end of it. We wrote that scene with him in the back of the van and him talking to Jonathan [Charlie Heaton]. But I like the idea of Will slowly building to this moment. He has a breakthrough in Episode 4 in a major way, but he has this one final step to take in order to really unlock his full potential. Something we really wanted to do with the show is tie his emotional growth with these powers that he\u2019s developed.<\/p>\n Ross:<\/b> Putting it at the penultimate [episode] ultimately made sense because what we\u2019re trying to do with the second volume is get our characters in a place where they all felt confident in themselves. Will being one of the major character arcs that carries through the season, but also with Dustin [Gaten Matarazzo] and Steve [Joe Keery] and Nancy [Natalia Dyer] and Jonathan \u2014 we wanted to get people, before they go into this final battle, having dealt with their internal fears and doubts.<\/p>\n Matt: <\/b>Because that\u2019s what Vecna weaponizes against you. If you don\u2019t have that self-hatred or self-doubt or those insecurities, then he can\u2019t hurt you. When Will purges himself of that, he becomes unstoppable \u2014 or that\u2019s the hope.<\/p>\n 1 <\/p>\n 2 <\/p>\n 1.<\/strong> Noah Schnapp as Will Byers, the show\u2019s central character. 2.<\/strong> With his mother, Joyce (Winona Ryder). In Season 5, Vol. 2, Will comes out to her and his friends. \u201cIt\u2019s something that we\u2019ve been planning to do for a really long time,\u201d says creator Matt Duffer. (Netflix) <\/p>\n What did you want that moment to be? What didn\u2019t you want it to be? <\/b><\/p>\n Ross:<\/b> We were nervous about it because you want to get it right, particularly working with Noah, who had recently come out himself. When he read it and we got his blessing, we felt really, really good about it. For us, it clicked writing it when we started talking about, \u201cWhat are Will\u2019s actual fears here in the future?\u201d When the show really works for us is when we can combine both our mythology and the supernatural with the emotional. In this case, it\u2019s going: Vecna is taking these fears and weaponizing them against Will, so Will actually talking to the group about these fears, as opposed to keeping them to himself \u2014 that\u2019s when the scene really clicked. <\/p>\n The original plan was for him to come out to Joyce [Winona Ryder], and we started writing it and it felt really wrong because if he\u2019s really going to be confronting these fears, he has to open up to to his friends as well. Once we did that, and we put the group in there, and we had him talk about what he saw in his future, that\u2019s when the scene felt, as a coming-out scene, like something very unique to this show.<\/p>\n Matt:<\/b> It\u2019s the scene we spent the longest on this season because we were so anxious about it and getting it right. It was the most important scene of the season. I can\u2019t emphasize enough how much the actors influence the characters, and their journeys as people really feed into what we\u2019re writing and how we write those characters. You\u2019re trying to channel Noah and what he went through and his growth, which we\u2019ve watched as a person, as he\u2019s found himself. Most of what is in the show is the first take, the first close-up that we did of Noah. It was incredible to watch because it\u2019s one of those moments where Noah was not acting. Those words were real that he was saying. It was very emotional. It felt so real to Noah, so truthful to him. Hopefully the scene feels like that to other people because a lot of kids are watching. You feel a certain responsibility, especially with scenes like that. You can\u2019t be careless about it.<\/p>\n Shipping is a hallmark in every fandom. <\/b>T<\/b>here\u2019s <\/b>a<\/b> moment where Will mentions a crush he\u2019s harbored. He doesn\u2019t directly state it\u2019s Mike, but Mike knows. The viewer knows. How would you describe <\/b>their <\/b>dynamic?<\/b><\/p>\n Ross: <\/b>There is a lot of shipping that\u2019s going on with this show. In terms of all the relationships \u2014 this goes with the Will storyline, it goes with Jonathan and Nancy \u2014 for us and the writers, what\u2019s interesting is not who ends up with who. What\u2019s interesting to us is, how are our characters growing as people? And most of the time, the answer to that is them finding strength within themselves as opposed to finding strength with someone else. When we were talking about Will, those are the conversations that we have. How do we get Will in a place that he feels confident and strong? And that, ultimately, is him confronting these fears and exposing himself to everyone, including Mike.<\/p>\n Matt: <\/b>When we were growing up, shipping was not a thing. This is a new thing and it gets intense. Part of me likes it because it shows how passionate people are for the show. I don\u2019t mind people interpreting things however they want. Obviously, Ross and I have what we intended. Ross touched on it thematically \u2014 in [Episode] 4, when Will finds his power, what we were intending was not that his love for Mike gives him these powers, but his love for himself and tapping back into how he felt when he was younger \u2014 that was the key to unlocking his full potential. <\/p>\n Ross:<\/b> It\u2019s more of an important message to put out to younger viewers. When I\u2019m thinking about my younger self and our struggle growing up, to put out a message that\u2019s \u201cIt\u2019ll all be right if this secret crush you have works out\u201d versus \u201cYou don\u2019t need that.\u201d Even if it disappoints some people, it\u2019s the more important message to put out into the world. <\/p>\n Matt:<\/b> Not one crush of mine worked out. It hurts you, though, right? If you feel feelings and it\u2019s unrequited, it feels like an attack on you or makes you feel unwanted. So much of the show is two things: just our love for the supernatural in the movies that we grew up on, and the other part of it is dealing with all the feelings that we had growing up. The best thing for me in the world is when younger people come up to us, the very few that recognize us, and tell us how it helped help them through a difficult time in their lives. Even Robin\u2019s speech to Will, giving him the confidence to come out, that makes it all worth it.<\/p>\n \u201cTo write them being back together and friends again was just such a relief,\u201d says Ross Duffer of Dustin, left, and Steve.<\/p>\n (Netflix)<\/p>\n I want to move on to Dustin and Steve. The strain on their relationship comes to a head in these episodes, but also reaches a reconciliation. That moment between them on the collapsing stairwell \u2014 <\/b><\/p>\n Matt: <\/b>It\u2019s a very short moment, but incredibly emotional. We were really moved by Gaten and Joe\u2019s performance. It wasn\u2019t hard for them to get into that spot. They\u2019re very close, they have a very sweet friendship that\u2019s not entirely dissimilar from their friendship on the show. The one frustrating thing about the show being split in the way it is, is we didn\u2019t put out a season of the show in Volume 1 \u2014 that\u2019s half of a show. I\u2019m excited for people to see Volume 2, mostly for the Steve-Dustin resolution. <\/p>\n Ross: <\/b>It was hard even writing it, keeping them apart. We felt it was right, emotionally, but to write them being back together and friends again was just such a relief because we\u2019ve missed them, and hopefully the audience has too.<\/p>\n And I love that Steve gets to have his a-ha moment where he comes up with what may be the plan that ends all this.<\/b><\/p>\n Ross:<\/b> It\u2019s funny, we\u2019ve joked about this; he\u2019s very convenient for us as writers because he\u2019s always confused. He doesn\u2019t know what\u2019s going on. Dustin dings him for that in Episode 5, and it was so satisfying to have Steve come up with the final plan, or the linchpin for the final plan. That was such a thrill to write to finally give Steve a moment because the brainstorming almost always goes to Dustin. <\/p>\n Nancy and Jonathan, at one point, are bracing for imminent death and find themselves having this touching and tender moment, sharing confessions and hard truths. What was the lay of conversation for what you wanted from that moment \u2014 there\u2019s the acknowledgment of their trauma bond and <\/b>a<\/b> slightly romantic unproposal?<\/b><\/p>\n Matt: <\/b>It\u2019s not dissimilar, in some ways, to the Mike-Will stuff. These are people who do love each other very much; it\u2019s just a question of, \u201cWhat does that mean? What does the future look like for them?\u201d Whenever we talked about Jonathan-Nancy \u2014 there\u2019s got to be this feeling that they feel like they must be together because of what they\u2019ve been through, and how could you ever connect with somebody else who hadn\u2019t been through the same thing? But are they right, in the long run, for each other? We wanted to express that as best as we can.<\/p>\n Ross: <\/b>It was a challenging idea. We\u2019ve been building to it, but to get it across in five-ish minutes, it\u2019s a complicated thing. It\u2019s not just a soap opera where it\u2019s shipping and who\u2019s going to end up with who. I\u2019ve been through experiences similar to this, when you\u2019re with someone for a very long time, you grow so close and you go through so many things together, and it reaches a point where you go, \u201cWell, how could someone else understand?\u201d But at the same time, is that suffocating to your own self-growth? So when we were talking about Nancy and Jonathan, and where do they go from here, it felt like for Nancy to really grow, it\u2019s not about Steve, it\u2019s not about Jonathan, it\u2019s about giving herself the space.<\/p>\n Matt:<\/b> And for Jonathan. They both felt the same way, they just weren\u2019t expressing it. Especially when you\u2019re young, you have trouble understanding or expressing those feelings. We wanted to put them in a life-or-death situation where it\u2019s their last opportunity to confess. The reference for that scene was \u201cAlmost Famous,\u201d when the plane\u2019s about to crash and everybody, in the moment of near-death, tells everybody everything. And then the plane doesn\u2019t crash and it\u2019s awkward. This is the opposite. <\/p>\n Matt, left, and Ross Duffer are closer to releasing the \u201cStranger Things\u201d series finale. Is it a happy ending? \u201cEven in victory, it\u2019s not confetti and dance parties,\u201d Ross says. <\/p>\n (Jason Armond \/ Los Angeles Times)<\/p>\n To return to this idea of the characters wrestling with what life looks like after this is over, if it\u2019s ever over \u2014 <\/b>i<\/b>s a happy<\/b> or triumphant<\/b> ending possible? Do you even think of it in those terms?<\/b><\/p>\n Matt: <\/b>It\u2019s weird because we didn\u2019t realize until we had finished writing it, how much was a reflection on the show itself. Everybody had a tricky year emotionally; it was a real roller-coaster in terms of dealing with the fact that something we had been putting everything into for 10 years was coming to an end. Ultimately, the show is more about childhood, coming of age and leaving that behind for a new part of your life. It\u2019s not really a question of a happy ending versus a not-happy ending. It\u2019s just a question of capturing what it feels like to move on. It\u2019s a bittersweet thing, but I think it\u2019s something that everybody goes through. <\/p>\n Ross: <\/b> Even in victory, it\u2019s not confetti and dance parties. It\u2019s a little more complicated than that. I remember \u201cLord of the Rings,\u201d reading it and watching the films as a kid \u2014 there\u2019s that moment when they\u2019re just back in the Shire, and there\u2019s bit of like, \u201cHow can you understand? And how do you move on from this?\u201d I remember at the time, when I was younger, feeling a bit of disappointment. I was like, \u201cCan\u2019t they just come back and everyone just celebrate and there\u2019s a party and then we fade out?\u201d But watching it older now, there\u2019s something so much more resonant about it. That\u2019s why we talk so much over the course of this season about \u201cEven if we are able to defeat Vecna, what does that look like for all of us?\u201d Because this Vecna and the evil in the Upside Down brought all these people together.<\/p>\n Matt:<\/b> In terms of the parallels to the show ending, that\u2019s really a complicated and confusing mix of emotions. Everybody\u2019s sad to move on, but then there\u2019s that sense that you have to move on. We try to capture that feeling.<\/p>\n I need you to tell me what the workflow is like on a show like this. It\u2019s lore, science <\/b>and <\/b>nerd-heavy. What are the checks and balances of making sure you\u2019re not messing things up?<\/b><\/p>\n Matt: <\/b>The challenge, especially as the lore and mythology has gotten too complicated, is to ensure that it\u2019s not weighing down the show and that there\u2019s enough room for the characters. That is more important than anything. What we\u2019ve been trying to do as much as possible with this season, because there is so much mythology, is tie it into characters and their growth. <\/p>\n Ross:<\/b> For instance, the Jonathan-Nancy scene \u2014 the melting lab was not an idea we had and then thought, \u201cOh, we could put Jonathan and Nancy in the situation.\u201d We know we want this conversation with Jonathan and Nancy. How do we get there? Then going, \u201cOh, what if the dark matter makes the lab unstable?\u201d Most of the time, you\u2019re starting character first, and then we\u2019re adjusting the mythology in order to make those character moments work.<\/p>\n Matt: <\/b>But also, a melting lab is cool! Everybody was super enthusiastic about that \u2014 Netflix, our production designer. <\/p>\n Ross: <\/b>Other dimensions, everyone was fine with the wormholes. But when we suddenly go, \u201cThe lab is going to melt,\u201d everyone was like, \u201cExcuse me?\u201d No one knew how to do it.<\/p>\n Matt: <\/b>We had to fight for that melting lab, from a production and cost standpoint.<\/p>\n I thought we were going to have a \u201cTitanic\u201d situation.<\/b><\/p>\n Ross: <\/b> Oh, \u201cTitanic\u201d was a reference. But we wanted them both on the table. <\/p>\n 1 <\/p>\n 2 <\/p>\n 1.<\/strong> Max Mayfield (Sadie Sink), left, and Holly Wheeler (Nell Fisher). 2.<\/strong> Jamie Campbell Bower as Vecna. (Netflix) <\/p>\n There\u2019s a massive culture of forecasting and dissecting \u2014 it can be overwhelming to me as a viewer because I feel like I\u2019m not watching close<\/b>ly<\/b> enough. But I also love seeing how people interpret things.<\/b><\/p>\n Ross: <\/b>Especially with the superfans, the tiniest of detail is picked up on. I think it\u2019s fun for them because they\u2019re rewatching this over and over again, so every little minute thing is seen as something significant even when that wasn\u2019t our intention \u2014 not that we don\u2019t plant things for later and do Easter eggs, but 99.9% of the writers\u2019 room is just talking about these characters in the story they\u2019re on. That is hopefully how you\u2019re going to be watching the show because it can get overwhelming when you see this stuff online. But at the end of the day, we\u2019re having people engage with a long-form story, so it makes us generally happy.<\/p>\n Matt: <\/b>But you hit on something important, which is everybody experiences the show very differently. Sometimes I go, \u201cWhat show are you watching?\u201d Whatever show they\u2019re watching is a completely different show than the show we thought we wrote. Then sometimes, some are on exactly our wavelength. And you see this with debates over the season. Season 3 is either the best season ever or the worst season ever. This is why you can\u2019t write to fans, because which fan are you writing to? It would be impossible. Ross and I just try to write what we think is cool and what our writers think is cool. <\/p>\n There are so many theories out there about how the <\/b>show is<\/b> ending. Has there been one where the person got it or close to it?<\/b><\/p>\n <\/p>\n
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